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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 10:55 am
(December 5, 2017 at 10:30 am)Khemikal Wrote: (December 5, 2017 at 10:25 am)Whateverist Wrote: Looks like you're not going to let me hang an "evangelical skeptic" moniker on you to differentiate what you are as an anti-theist over and above what I am as a simple atheist. Only because it doesn't fit. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who mobilize their objections. Hitchens comes to mind as a vocal and evangelizing anti-theist. Plenty of atheists reference his material with regards to the abrahamic god..but miss, I think, the thrust of his contention that the abrahamic god is just one expression of why -theism- is abhorrent.
Quote:I'm sure there are varieties of theistic ideologies which we all hold strong objections to. Everybody hates the ideology of the Westboro baptists. For that matter, most of the theists we meet here are anti-theist in regard to denominations that aren't their own. Christians tend to hate what mormons believe. I hate scientology; if I could, I'd have everyone who has profited from that church thrown in jail.
So would you say an anti-theist would be someone who holds strong objections to every form of theistic ideology, or just most of them?
The term is pretty explicit in that regard, don;t you think? Anti-theism. Not anti-christianism, anti-hinduism, anti-islamism....etc.
But a-theism should then be without the same thing anti-theism is against, theistic ideology as you put it. I guess to be without any belief in god pretty much amounts to the same thing. Alrighty then, always good to get clear on the terms.
Apparently "ideology" is most commonly used in a political setting. When I have strong objections to a political movement, they are usually moral objections more than intellectual objections. I wonder if that is true for your anti-theism as well? I have moral objections to the way the Westboro baptists ideology manifests itself. I have strong moral objections to the way scientology is practiced.
Would you characterize your objections to theist ideology as being moral objections?
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 11:01 am
(This post was last modified: December 5, 2017 at 11:05 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(December 5, 2017 at 10:55 am)Whateverist Wrote: But a-theism should then be without the same thing anti-theism is against, theistic ideology as you put it. I guess to be without any belief in god pretty much amounts to the same thing. Alrighty then, always good to get clear on the terms. Atheism is a single line item comment on whether or not you believe in gods. Anti-theism is not....and people who do believe in gods can be anti-theists themselves...though we traditionally called them maltheists or misotheists. People who believed that the gods did exist, or may exist..but that people should forget about and/or ignore them in that case.
Quote:Apparently "ideology" is most commonly used in a political setting. When I have strong objections to a political movement, they are usually moral objections more than intellectual objections. I wonder if that is true for your anti-theism as well? I have moral objections to the way the Westboro baptists ideology manifests itself. I have strong moral objections to the way scientology is practiced.
Would you characterize your objections to theist ideology as being moral objections?
I have moral objections in addition to my intellectual objections, sure. To specific theistic concepts and to the theistic concept itself. I think that theism i akin to turning your back on the baby and, instead, caring for the cubs of the wolf that's hunting...for your fuckin baby, lol. A stunning dereliction of moral duty, and an abrogation of moral authority. Theism, however placidly employed at any present moment, lays all the necessary groundwork for misery. A primed explosive waiting for someone to intentionally or even accidentally set it off....assuming it doesn't just go off by itself for no discernible reason.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 11:43 am
(December 5, 2017 at 10:30 am)Khemikal Wrote: (December 5, 2017 at 10:25 am)Whateverist Wrote: Looks like you're not going to let me hang an "evangelical skeptic" moniker on you to differentiate what you are as an anti-theist over and above what I am as a simple atheist. Only because it doesn't fit. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who mobilize their objections. Hitchens comes to mind as a vocal and evangelizing anti-theist. Plenty of atheists reference his material with regards to the abrahamic god..but miss, I think, the thrust of his contention that the abrahamic god is just one expression of why -theism- is abhorrent.
Quote:I'm sure there are varieties of theistic ideologies which we all hold strong objections to. Everybody hates the ideology of the Westboro baptists. For that matter, most of the theists we meet here are anti-theist in regard to denominations that aren't their own. Christians tend to hate what mormons believe. I hate scientology; if I could, I'd have everyone who has profited from that church thrown in jail.
So would you say an anti-theist would be someone who holds strong objections to every form of theistic ideology, or just most of them?
The term is pretty explicit in that regard, don;t you think? Anti-theism. Not anti-christianism, anti-hinduism, anti-islamism....etc. The examples some person are willing to toss under the bus aren't theism gone wrong..they're theism done right...and that's the problem with theism -all of it-.
Might we unearth Sam Harris's argument involving Jainism in regard to the question of anti-theism? If Hitchens' criticism of the Abrahamic god "is just one expression of why -theism- is abhorrent," don't the Jains count as theists who lack any of these aberrations. Being a bit of a peacenik, I admire Jains (though my love of bacon and tendency to imbibe a variety of intoxicants makes the religion personally unattractive). What kind of beef would a reasonable person have against the Jains? How do Hitchen's remarks about Yahweh apply to them in the slightest?
Due to an unfortunate post on this forum, I have had the misfortune of looking up the Church of the Creator. Now, I have a soft spot for pantheism. I think that it is indistinguishable from atheism on most important matters. With Creativity, we have an organization that has all the trappings of a Southern Baptist church without the theism. And with the Jains, we have theism without ANY of the trappings of the Southern Baptists. My point is that theism itself isn't necessarily the problem. After all, most of the things discussed in God is not Great do NOT apply the the Jains but probably do apply to Creativity.
Anyway, I guess I kind of drifted away from the "definition of anti-theism" part of the discussion to offer the point that theism isn't necessarily the biggest problem with religion.
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 11:56 am
(This post was last modified: December 5, 2017 at 12:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(December 5, 2017 at 11:43 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Might we unearth Sam Harris's argument involving Jainism in regard to the question of anti-theism? If Hitchens' criticism of the Abrahamic god "is just one expression of why -theism- is abhorrent," don't the Jains count as theists who lack any of these aberrations. Being a bit of a peacenik, I admire Jains (though my love of bacon and tendency to imbibe a variety of intoxicants makes the religion personally unattractive). What kind of beef would a reasonable person have against the Jains? How do Hitchen's remarks about Yahweh apply to them in the slightest? Actually, no. Jains aren't theists at all. I don't find their ideology particularly compelling, I have objections..but it would be inappropriate to call them anti-theist objections. Theism seperates itself from other forms of god belief (and assorted spirit/supernaturalism) by criteria to which jainism doesn't conform.
Quote:Anyway, I guess I kind of drifted away from the "definition of anti-theism" part of the discussion to offer the point that theism isn't necessarily the biggest problem with religion.
Religions have their own problems..but being an anti-theist isn't the same as being an anti-religionist. The anti-theists position is that -theism- is the biggest problem in theism. It's really that simple.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 12:04 pm
(December 5, 2017 at 1:12 am)Haipule Wrote: (December 4, 2017 at 7:39 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:
Someone might well ask, "Why would God allow that to happen--again". I would WAG that the reason is to protect us from outside attack and from our own stupid selves. Apparently, He has an independent plan.
The only evidence for God will always be your own life and everything you experience in it and that is the only evidence that will be worth a damn.
My life is evidence for God because, it has been spectacular beyond my dreams as His book promised.
You would wager a guess that a deity has an independent plan? That certainly isn't truth, it's daydreaming.
The only evidence for God will be my own life? Well then, it's no longer just a lack of evidence - there is no god.
Congratulations on your success. But when someone claims to be blessed, they are only being selfish, arrogant, and sociopathically un-caring about the lives of others. My god blessed ME, therefore, I'm better than _____. Why should I care about the children who cry out to god for help every night because they are being beaten and raped? Why should I care about the families who are starving? -- God loves me better than them. Your "good luck" is only coincidence and good luck, and if you brag about it and do not use it to help others, then you are not a good human being.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 12:07 pm
(This post was last modified: December 5, 2017 at 12:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Oh but he is here, to help us, by setting the record straight - part of his good luck is in being made a party to the real deal. The -rest- of those motherfuckers are charlatans. 
As an addendum to my comments above, re jainism. Anti-theism isn't a comment about some specific god concept..the notion that..maybe, if folks came up with a better god it would be better. After all, the gods we have -are- what it looks like when people try to come up with "good gods".
The answer from anti-theism, no matter what theistic god you refer to, even a hypothetical god specifically designed to overcome any hanging objections from real world gods..will always be "it's shit", because theism is shit. It doesn't matter what gods you plug into it. The end result is as predictable as clockwork. People do legitimately believe that they worship the god of peace when they blow themselves to bits...and even a jain will ruthlessly prosecute what they call a "just" war. They've done so, and they used their "un-objectionable" ideology to justify land grab unification and the elimination of political rivals, up to and including killing the children of princes to terminate the competing line.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 2:28 pm
(December 5, 2017 at 1:12 am)Haipule Wrote: My life is evidence for God because, it has been spectacular beyond my dreams as His book promised.
So would the life of someone born into drudgery and misery be evidence for no god?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 3:06 pm
Interesting that the evidence for God should vary so wildly between the content and the miserable, and even for the same person depending on how that day is going.
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 3:10 pm
(This post was last modified: December 5, 2017 at 3:40 pm by vulcanlogician.)
(December 5, 2017 at 12:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote: ...and even a jain will ruthlessly prosecute what they call a "just" war. They've done so, and they used their "un-objectionable" ideology to justify land grab unification and the elimination of political rivals, up to and including killing the children of princes to terminate the competing line.
Okay, this is news to me. A quick google confirms that Jains do condone violence in defense of oneself or one's family (which seems reasonable) and even allow its practitioners to fight in wars in defense of one's nation (which is ambiguous because a Machiavellian preemptive strike might be considered "defense"--this one's a bit bothersome). The killing of children is, of course, inexcusable. I couldn't find mention of it anywhere online. Was this action endorsed by the greater Jain community, or was it a few self-interested "Jains" acting for their own benefit and then justifying it afterward? I'm not opposed to changing my mind about Jains, but I want to know the context in which this event took place.
Edit: And I count Jains as theists, btw. They have a god concept which is different from other religions, but it's still some entity they believe in without evidence.
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RE: Anti-Theism
December 5, 2017 at 3:23 pm
(December 3, 2017 at 10:36 pm)Haipule Wrote: I sort of get Agnosticism, Agnostic Atheism and Atheism. Although, there is a blur, they do all start with "A"  It seems to me that Atheism is as diverse as Christianity. Christianity has it's 5 major idiot clowns; Tertullian; Origen; Augustine; Martin Luther; John Calvin.
I'm quite sure Atheism also has it's clowns. I mean, Carl Sagan...really?
What I don't understand is the anti-theism among Atheists. If there is no Deity then, why bash what you don't believe even exists?
Yet, I fully understand anti-Christianity. I am a Christian but, those five clowns followers call me a heretic!
I think religion is a negative force in the world so I am an antitheist.
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