(December 7, 2017 at 2:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: In short, it is a dilemma for us, not a dilemma for God. Does a moral system founded on God’s nature adequately serve as an objective standard for our notions of what constitutes the highest good? I would say there are good reasons to suppose that any objective standard would meet, at minimum, the following criteria:

The standard itself would not change.
The standard would not depend on external conditions.
The standard exists independently of any particular moral agent.
The standard must apply universally to all moral agents in all circumstances.

What the what..........................? 

The above does not approach what it means to -be- an objective moral system, is needlessly elaborate in it's failure to accurately describe moral objectivity...and pointless as a godism; what with god (as you describe it) failing 3 of 4, and succeeding only at the arbitrarily circumscribed metric.

Moral objectivity has -nothing- to do with whether or not something is unchanging. Frankly, if the relevant facts of the matter change, then an objective morality would -have- to change to remain objective. Moral objectivity is -defined- by external conditions, it does exist independantly of any particular moral agent (including a god.......), but it -cannot- apply universally to all moral agents in all circumstances...due to it's objectivity.

You appear to be discussing permanence, self referentiality, and absolutism... and -calling- those things moral objectivity.

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For reference...the one and only criteria for an objective moral standard...is a standard which makes true moral claims.  That's it, that's all...and nowhere above do you mention that singular, defining, criteria.

(December 5, 2017 at 2:09 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: ...There is an external and objective standard for the perfection of spheres of which a marbles are good examples and popcorn balls are poor ones. To argue otherwise means taking the stance that the physical universe is unintelligible. I was not promoting the idea of an external standard for a glass marbles simply because those are artifacts whose value depends on the use for which they were created. Nevertheless, a chipped and/or misshapen marble is not a good one for playing a game...

This Is lifted from a random new age woo forum.

Quote:Well. A candle lights another.
It is essentially a falling off process, falling off of layers of conditioned responses that constitute the social identity of a person. It is a process that allows and reveals oneself to oneself with intimacy and acceptance. The whole thought sphere that runs parallel to Reality. The i identity reconciles into unknowing.
It is a simplification of life,heart, mind, so life can be lived with simple, fresh response as each moment decrees. Dysfunctionality dissolves and emotional, psychological simplicity dawns. The seeker goes past the mending state, of chasing shadows and settles in one's own pristine being.

In presence of a catalyst, the chemical reaction speeds up.

Now tell me the difference between your word salad and theirs? And again tell me why anyone should take you seriously?

The theists sure love to tie themselves in knots with their definitions of "perfect" here lol.

"Oh well it's um... God is the best at everything possible but some things are actually absents of things so he doesn't have to be any good at being evil because evil is just the absence of good and not the other way around because uhhhhhhhh because I say so! Ta-da!"

"Oh yeah and he's only the best at logically possible things, I mean . . . you don't think he's ACTUALLY omnipotent do you? LMAO! Omnipotence isn't actually POSSIBLE! Duh! God's kind of weak. There's many things he can't do but that's no discredit to him because he simply made a universe where only a handful of things are logically possible. Ta-da!"

Exactly. That's why the "real God" is the God of light and dark, he made killing, he made pain, he made blood, he made guts, he also made pleasure, honey, milk, sex, women, men...etc.

Evil people will not be evil if God didn't create evil in the first place; and controlled it too.
That's why God is so so scary. That's why his punishment was described to be the most terrible, and his gift the most pleasurable.

Fire and water, night and day, love and hate, dark and light, hunger and feeling full.
The perfection of God is springing from that concept. If you see a God in a man's skin; then that ain't a God.

(December 8, 2017 at 9:27 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Exactly. That's why the "real God" is the God of light and dark, he made killing, he made pain, he made blood, he made guts, he also made pleasure, honey, milk, sex, women, men...etc.

Evil people will not be evil if God didn't create evil in the first place; and controlled it too.
That's why God is so so scary. That's why his punishment was described to be the most terrible, and his gift the most pleasurable.

Fire and water, night and day, love and hate, dark and light, hunger and feeling full.
The perfection of God is springing from that concept. If you see a God in a man's skin; then that ain't a God.

God is the Ultimate Catch 22? The Cosmic Loophole? The Scapegoat for murderous swine like Moses and Muhammed? The Patron of Thuggees and Mafiosos? The Executioners Song?

(December 8, 2017 at 10:05 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(December 8, 2017 at 9:27 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Exactly. That's why the "real God" is the God of light and dark, he made killing, he made pain, he made blood, he made guts, he also made pleasure, honey, milk, sex, women, men...etc.

Evil people will not be evil if God didn't create evil in the first place; and controlled it too.
That's why God is so so scary. That's why his punishment was described to be the most terrible, and his gift the most pleasurable.

Fire and water, night and day, love and hate, dark and light, hunger and feeling full.
The perfection of God is springing from that concept. If you see a God in a man's skin; then that ain't a God.

God is the Ultimate Catch 22? The Cosmic Loophole? The Scapegoat for murderous swine like Moses and Muhammed? The Patron of Thuggees and Mafiosos? The Executioners Song?

Making these things a possibility, does never ever suggest that he ordered creations to do them.
Especially people, they do these things based on their own thinking, God only made these nightmares a possibility.

With God; I always saw the sun rising. But with non-believing humans, we saw 2 world wars that killed 80 Million in less than 30 years, and an atomic bomb at the end.

(December 8, 2017 at 10:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 8, 2017 at 10:05 pm)chimp3 Wrote: God is the Ultimate Catch 22? The Cosmic Loophole? The Scapegoat for murderous swine like Moses and Muhammed? The Patron of Thuggees and Mafiosos? The Executioners Song?

Making these things a possibility, does never ever suggest that he ordered creations to do them.
Especially people, they do these things based on their own thinking, God only made these nightmares a possibility.

With God; I always saw the sun rising. But with non-believing humans, we saw 2 world wars that killed 80 Million in less than 30 years, and an atomic bomb at the end.

Well, if the A Bomb was such a bad idea why did your impotent god not stop it? Allah's penis must be as flaccid as  your rationalization.

(December 8, 2017 at 11:12 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(December 8, 2017 at 10:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Making these things a possibility, does never ever suggest that he ordered creations to do them.
Especially people, they do these things based on their own thinking, God only made these nightmares a possibility.

With God; I always saw the sun rising. But with non-believing humans, we saw 2 world wars that killed 80 Million in less than 30 years, and an atomic bomb at the end.

Well, if the A Bomb was such a bad idea why did your impotent god not stop it? Allah's penis must be as flaccid as  your rationalization.

Why would he?
There is an afterlife that everybody would get judged at its beginning, so consequences must be as real as they could.

(December 8, 2017 at 11:27 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 8, 2017 at 11:12 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Well, if the A Bomb was such a bad idea why did your impotent god not stop it? Allah's penis must be as flaccid as  your rationalization.

Why would he?
There is an afterlife that everybody would get judged at its beginning, so consequences must be as real as they could.

If I was a god I would forbid and prevent my children from killing one another. I guess that makes me a better Daddy than your fake one in the sky. I am morally superior to your murderous sky daddy!

(December 8, 2017 at 11:31 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(December 8, 2017 at 11:27 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Why would he?
There is an afterlife that everybody would get judged at its beginning, so consequences must be as real as they could.

If I was a god I would forbid and prevent my children from killing one another. I guess that makes me a better Daddy than your fake one in the sky. I am morally superior to your murderous sky daddy!

Which makes you a dictator and a puppet-master.
Why would you enforce morals in a place already designed and created as a test ground?

According to what I found in the Quran; Islam's holy book, the concept can't be clearer:

Quote:Sura 67, The Quran:
( 2 )   [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

Wouldn't intervention be a breaking to the whole test concept?