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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 4:29 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 4:34 pm by CoxRox.)
(August 21, 2011 at 4:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote: A rock falls from the sky crushing a walnut below. Voila, a "working machine". Does your model have any predictive power? Does it explain anything (say, again, cancer) or is it entirely comprised of begging for favorable definitions, and appeals to ignorance?
No, the rock does not explain anything in the sense you are suggesting.
Is it right to compare a rock as a nutcracker, with the dna in a cell? I don't believe it is.
My understanding of a 'machine' is of a multi part system that produces a desired effect. The rock is 'useful' for all kinds of things, but isn't my idea of a 'machine'.
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 4:32 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 4:50 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Believe believe believe.
Rocks were the only machines know to man for hundreds of thousands of years. In fact, they were so instrumental that we named a bunch of "ages" after them. (you're asking for a favorable definition by suggesting that a rock cannot be a machine)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 4:50 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 4:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Believe believe believe.
Rocks were the only machines know to man for hundreds of thousands of years. In fact, they were so instrumental that we named a bunch of "ages" after them.
Lots of things have uses but we don't normally view them as machines. When I use the term 'machine' in relation to DNA, I'm inferring multi-part, finely tuned systems.
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So, as long as we define things the way you wish, and as long as we don't question your base assumption (that a creator exists), and ignoring the fact that the ID model has absolutely no predictive or explanatory power...it seems to make sense....to you?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 5:26 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 5:29 pm by CoxRox.)
(August 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, as long as we define things the way you wish, and as long as we don't question your base assumption (that a creator exists), and ignoring the fact that the ID model has absolutely no predictive or explanatory power...it seems to make sense....to you?
Now come on....  You know that's not the case. You can call a rock a machine. It struck me that it was a bad example of the kind of machine I'm likening Dna to e.g a computer??
Yes, I believe in a Designer, hence why discussing DNA etc is so interesting and important to me. Why use that as some kind of ammunition against me.
As for the ID model having no predictive or explanatory power, well, if I may refer you to another video clip, not because I'm lazy but because I won't do justice to the examples given.
it discusses the type 111 ss in light of the Behe /Miller arguments, junk dna and understanding cancer viruses using design engineering (boeing engineer) to understand how the virus works: the relevant section starts at 3.15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQ6q0XI-...re=related
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 5:34 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 5:45 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You watch this and see a guy doing what? I see a guy waffling, making baseless assertions, misrepresenting his opposition, and just generally being a douche. I don't see any predictions. I see prophecy after the fact. I already knew that the religious made prophecy after the fact. I apply the principles of succesful electronics manufacturing to my little garden every day, I have yet to see a missile guidance system sprout from a tomato vine. This guy made absolutely no predictions. There is no "relevant section" wtf?
Look, Cox, I understand, that from faith there is an argument for ID. I'm asking you to show me evidence, a scientific argument for intelligent design. This isn't small potatoes, I've said this before and I'll say it again. A compelling argument for ID would win a Nobel prize. No doubt in my mind. You say a compelling argument exists. Why is it that it only exists in the minds of the faithful?
I've mentioned this to you in chat. I don't think that you are ignorant, ID is ignorant. You have been sold a bill of goods along with an empty box.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 5:37 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 5:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You watch this and see a guy doing what? I see a guy waffling, making baseless assertions, misrepresenting his opposition, and just generally being a douche.
You like to exaggerate. It was a very good debate and both guys made good points.
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 21, 2011 at 7:16 pm
Those points were what? In your own words, please.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 22, 2011 at 2:43 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 7:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Those points were what? In your own words, please.
Not so fast. You're the one who stated that Meyers was:
'waffling, making baseless assertions, misrepresenting his opposition, and just generally being a douche' but without any 'points' to back up your assertions. You first, please..... 
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"
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RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 22, 2011 at 3:23 pm
(This post was last modified: August 22, 2011 at 3:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
He was asked repeatedly to highlight predictions that ID would make. This is in essence asking for specific ideas that would falsify ID. He did not provide these. Because they do not exist. He waffled on the question entirely, and then when pressed he pointed to someone using a "design framework" to work out a problem. So what, I use a design framework all the time. My rock falling from the sky can be studied from a design framework.
He spent his time criticizing "darwinian evolution", not offering his own theory, beyond "goddidit". This is why ID is not taught in schools Cox. Because it is not a theory, it is a collection of bitches and gripes.
He's dropping names, using big sciencey words like a sword, but he's not actually saying anything other than "I believe in god". I cannot explain this to you any other way. The reason his opponent is smirking and interjecting is not because his opponent is an asshole, it's because he can't believe the shit that's falling out of this guys mouth. Neither can I. The entire argument is "science hasn't explained everything ergo god". Well lah ti fucking dah. Falsification. Important.
You know why creatards pick bacteria? Because they don't fossilize well, go figure.
Would you like to stake the moment of creation on the appearance of this "irreducibly complex machine"? If this were the moment of creation, would we find life older than that which has this structure? I want to bring this to your attention.
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/...oad&id=565
http://www.discovery.org/a/17221
Is that the message that you get from this stuff? No supernatural creator? Fucking double-speak start to finish. I cannot stand the Discovery Institute. I'll say it again, bill of goods, empty box.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
This isn't science Cox, it's politics.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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