(December 27, 2017 at 2:14 am)Thena323 Wrote: As long as there exists an element within society that seeks to see those rights scaled back (and we KNOW that there is), then maintaining a degree of vigilance is justifiable, reasonable, and likely necessary. And tbh, the rhetoric of "You got your cake, now shut up" pretty much suggests a resentment and acrimony, that only further denotes the need for watchfulness and vigilance, at least to my mind.

You know, I always bring up a similar argument to my conservative friends who say stuff like, "The labor unions have gone too far. They used to be necessary, but not anymore."

"Look," I tell them, "you want to see them become necessary again? Then shut them down."

Just like there are elements of society who would love to see workers in a position where they are easily exploited, there are those who long for the good ol' days when women were happy to work servile and menial jobs. I like the idea that feminists are "holding the front line." And, yes, sometimes unions ask for more than is fair, and companies go under because of it. Justice, like labor negotiation, is not a perfect process. But it's the best thing we've got to ensure fairness.

(December 27, 2017 at 2:40 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(December 27, 2017 at 2:14 am)Thena323 Wrote: As long as there exists an element within society that seeks to see those rights scaled back (and we KNOW that there is), then maintaining a degree of vigilance is justifiable, reasonable, and likely necessary. And tbh, the rhetoric of "You got your cake, now shut up" pretty much suggests a resentment and acrimony, that only further denotes the need for watchfulness and vigilance, at least to my mind.

You know, I always bring up a similar argument to my conservative friends who say stuff like, "The labor unions have gone too far. They used to be necessary, but not anymore."

"Look," I tell them, "you want to see them become necessary again? Then shut them down."

Just like there are elements of society who would love to see workers in a position where they are easily exploited, there are those who long for the good ol' days when women were happy to work servile and menial jobs. I like the idea that feminists are "holding the front line." And, yes, sometimes unions ask for more than is fair, and companies go under because of it. Justice, like labor negotiation, is not a perfect process. But it's the best thing we've got to ensure fairness.

Indeed stupid people who proclaim feminism etc . Are no longer needed don't get the fact the fight does not end . You have captured the field (partially ) but now you have too hold it indefinitely .And there are always forces who wish to undermine what has been gained .

I certainly think feminism by the definition a lot of people give it is still necessary. Egalitarianism is needed as defined by some people. Even men’s rights activism is needed if you take out the he-man woman hating. Even a little disparity is enough to warrant action. Complacency is never a good option. I still think we also need to be active against fringe groups, and it remains the reason I don’t use labels to define myself.

(December 27, 2017 at 3:38 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Indeed stupid people who proclaim feminism etc . Are no longer needed don't get the fact the fight does not end . You have captured the field (partially ) but now you have too hold it indefinitely .And there are always forces who wish to undermine what has been gained .

In regards to such issues, I would guess that folks who make that assertion are inordinately trusting and/or unworldly and gullible. 
Or simply detached and uniformed. Perhaps outright resentful.

Hardly matters how they come to that notion, though. As a proposition, it's ludicrous.

Still don't explain why feminists seem not only indifferent but actually oppose help for men

Is it
A) you don't care
B) you don't think any help is needed
C) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power but you still agree men need help
D) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power and you also disagree men need help

(December 27, 2017 at 12:02 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Still don't explain why feminists seem not only indifferent but actually oppose help for men

Is it
A) you don't care
B) you don't think any help is needed
C) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power but you still agree men need help
D) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power and you also disagree men need help

Those sound like statements, not questions. If we're starting on that foot, there's no debate to be had.  You've already made up your mind. You're looking for an echo chamber not a dialogue.
Which is also why CL's supposed "I just wanna be open minded about this" theme in her OP is laughable.

-Teresa

(December 27, 2017 at 12:02 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Still don't explain why feminists seem not only indifferent but actually oppose help for men

Is it
A) you don't care
B) you don't think any help is needed
C) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power but you still agree men need help
D) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power and you also disagree men need help

There are many men in my life whom I love dearly, and I would gladly fight for them to have every opportunity to live up to their potential. 
Of course, I don't oppose help for men. 

But it's hardly a secret that the MRM is dominated by militant, radicalized atheists, and "helping men" in general is not on their actual agenda. Certainly not ones like you, or even most men on the planet for that matter.

Open your eyes, pool. In the politics of "us and them" that's actually behind the MRM's rhetoric of fairness for all, you are "them".

(December 27, 2017 at 12:02 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Still don't explain why feminists seem not only indifferent but actually oppose help for men

Is it
A) you don't care
B) you don't think any help is needed
C) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power but you still agree men need help
D) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power and you also disagree men need help

For me to consider this more than naked bating I'd need to see some effort to support your first pseudo-sentence.

(December 27, 2017 at 12:02 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Still don't explain why feminists seem not only indifferent but actually oppose help for men

Is it
A) you don't care
B) you don't think any help is needed
C) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power but you still agree men need help
D) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power and you also disagree men need help

That's simply not true . I support men and oppose the system that fucks them over as do most feminist i know . What i reject is the MRA (the good men project are not MRA's) and their awful movement . That really don't care about men and use male issues to enrich themselves (Paul Elms ) and enforce the very culture that screws men over .

(December 27, 2017 at 12:23 pm)Tres Leches Wrote:

(December 27, 2017 at 12:02 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Still don't explain why feminists seem not only indifferent but actually oppose help for men

Is it
A) you don't care
B) you don't think any help is needed
C) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power but you still agree men need help
D) you are concerned men's rights people are secret regressives so you'd rather they have no power and you also disagree men need help

Those sound like statements, not questions. If we're starting on that foot, there's no debate to be had.  You've already made up your mind. You're looking for an echo chamber not a dialogue.
Which is also why CL's supposed "I just wanna be open minded about this" theme in her OP is laughable.

-Teresa

I'm curious to know what you're assuming my actual stance is if you think I'm lying about being open minded.