(January 16, 2018 at 1:48 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 1:14 pm)alpha male Wrote: You're continuing to ignore the context of my comment.

No, actually, I don't know, so I wanted to ask. I was serious. This is a topic worth discussing.

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(January 16, 2018 at 1:16 pm)alpha male Wrote: And when she did actually say stop, I believe he did.

But then went in from another angle.

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(January 16, 2018 at 1:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No. He's saying it's a non verbal cue. 

As the article I posted says, if you're going to rely solely on men picking up your "non verbal cues" to try to figure out whether or not you're wanting to get sexual, you better consider ALL the non verbal cues you're sending. Otherwise, use words.

I believe her account says she did use words, which he also did not respect. 
I am not saying he sexually assaulted her, but I think it's important to tease out the issues with this situation.

Yes she use verbal objection and overt physical objection . There is no fucking way those could be misread ,

(January 16, 2018 at 2:55 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Poor ole Aziz, won't anyone think of the creepy predator?  It's super unfair that everyone knows he's a creepy predator now.

You called him a predator. Howler monkey, meet kettle?

Just taking the story @ face value, obviously..if it didn't happen the way she relates it my comments could change.  Predatory behavior is the social norm for human courtship in the US.  Generally, though, we give more berth to the rape line than he did, again..as related. Like I said a few pages back, he put in the work to straddle the line.

I won't feel bad for a person when others discover they're a predatory creep. I just wont. I think it would be unfair if he were charged with a crime.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:55 am)Mermaid Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 11:52 am)alpha male Wrote: She let the guy take her clothes off shortly after getting back to his apartment. What did that non-verbally communicate?

Did she consent?

And did he ask before he started undressing her?  I don't often just start undressing people and if it were the first time I think I'd at least ask - first.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:11 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 11:55 am)Mermaid Wrote: Did she consent?

And did he ask before he started undressing her?  I don't often just start undressing people and if it were the first time I think I'd at least ask - first.

I don't think I've ever had anyone ask if they can undress me. But I haven't had anyone ask if I wanted to do the thing, either. Not in words.

I'm not sure if I feel bad for him. I don't know him and, as Tibs and I were saying, he's not even a top 20 comedian to us. I love Parks and Rec, but that's mostly Chris Pratt and the mustache guy. I don't really have a horse in this race. However, I do think, assuming what we know is true or that she's given a biased perspective, that it's objectionable to put a guy on blast like that, particularly knowing the "journalist" you are speaking to works for a super-biased website. I don't think it's the "right" thing to do, which is just my opinion. There certainly aren't rules about this kind of thing.

(January 16, 2018 at 12:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 7:51 am)alpha male Wrote: First, I agree with Shell and others that Aziz isn't guilty of assault.

That said, maybe men - for their own protection if nothing else - shouldn't be trying to score on a first date. Or a second.

If a man's been going out with a woman for a month or two and progressing toward sex, it's less likely such charges will be made, and if they are, less likely that they'll stick.

Exactly this^

Waiting to have sex until you at least have a relationship with someone. Imagine such a radical idea.

Yes but at the same time, no number of dates = I get to undress you and help you over your shyness by insisting.  Nope.  I want to know a woman is into it too.  You can be light hearted about it, like "who else feels like getting naked?"  Or "You know what I feel like doing?  Making out!"  Hey, it works.

(January 16, 2018 at 2:54 pm)Shell B Wrote: Here's the thing, gross chicks are going to do the same things to guys.

The real problem is that you can't change that system unless you start to call unsolicited kisses sexual assault. That's literally how humans initiate sexual encounters. You go in for the kiss and see what happens. If it works, you take it a step further, as Aziz did, and keep going until you hit a dead end. Both women and men have to be clear about the dead end. And, yes, people are going to kiss you (or try to kiss you) sometimes. It's going to be gross, but it's not illegal and shouldn't be because, well, slippery ass slope.

If the woman literally gets fucked over, she's been raped. That's already illegal.

Is it not PC to expect women to take any responsibility for themselves? Have we flipped completely over to the idea that women are helpless and instead of treating them as the wife-beaters of old did, we now treat them like children who can't possibly navigate the icky world of dating? I, for one, don't like the idea that I'm a voiceless victim in every encounter any more than I like the idea that I'm inferior and need to be punished. This doesn't help women, and it's definitely going to hurt men.

To the bolded, it is an asymmetric game.  I think the argument would be that it's unbalanced.  That the burden is currently all on the women, while the guy is allowed to try and get away with whatever he can.  Looking for a status quo that spreads the burden out a bit doesn't mean women are helpless children.  It just means that women are baring all the burden, and men are baring none of it.  And that seems stupid.

Just like you don't want women to be treated as children who can't take responsibility for themselves, should men be treated as children who can't take responsibility for their own actions?  

I mean, your stance has been the status quo for quite a while, and women are getting raped/assaulted/harassed willy nilly in that environment.  It's great you have been able to seemingly shrug off your experiences, but there's probably a large swath of people that you don't represent.

And you're right about women doing the same thing, but men usually have the luxury of being physically stronger.  If I shove a chick and say get the fuck away from me, I'm probably good to go in any setting.  The threat of physical retribution doesn't have to factor into my response.  If you watch "Always Sunny in Philadelphia" you know about the 'implication.'
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I do know what you are saying though.  I remember the catcalling debate years back.  And I was thinking how there are probably plenty of girls who like it in a variety of demographics.  And now instead of getting that daily compliment/flirting when they go get lunch during their work break, everybody's quiet.  And that's a bummer.  

I'm not sure how you balance the two worlds.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:15 pm)Shell B Wrote: I'm not sure if I feel bad for him. I don't know him and, as Tibs and I were saying, he's not even a top 20 comedian to us. I love Parks and Rec, but that's mostly Chris Pratt and the mustache guy. I don't really have a horse in this race. However, I do think, assuming what we know is true or that she's given a biased perspective, that it's objectionable to put a guy on blast like that, particularly knowing the "journalist" you are speaking to works for a super-biased website. I don't think it's the "right" thing to do, which is just my opinion. There certainly aren't rules about this kind of thing.

Probably never will be.  He's a public figure getting roasted in the oven of public opinion.  It seems like we're considering a massive pile of less than ideal decisions, here.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:15 pm)Shell B Wrote: I'm not sure if I feel bad for him. I don't know him and, as Tibs and I were saying, he's not even a top 20 comedian to us. I love Parks and Rec, but that's mostly Chris Pratt and the mustache guy. I don't really have a horse in this race. However, I do think, assuming what we know is true or that she's given a biased perspective, that it's objectionable to put a guy on blast like that, particularly knowing the "journalist" you are speaking to works for a super-biased website. I don't think it's the "right" thing to do, which is just my opinion. There certainly aren't rules about this kind of thing.

I think one of the other aspects with Aziz is he's one of the lefty-ally feminist tiny cute beta guys.  I think a lot of the imagery associated with this type of behavior is Bill O'Reilly or Donald Trump.  Some imposing rich old white guy.  But it's really just men.  

I can tell you, as a man, I'm not surprised by this at all.  When everybody was throwing a fit over 'locker room talk.'  That really is locker room talk.  Talking about women as objects is what most of us do when you're not around.  But a lot of guys are going to feign outrage, because they are either ashamed of themselves or trying to sidle up to some ladies.  I suppose one or two of them might actually be decent people.  

But I think making it very clear to all women what exactly they are dealing with is important.  I don't think we'll see Aziz' career end.  But it's probably fair that someone who framed himself as a feminist/ally take a hit for being a shithead to women.