(January 16, 2018 at 3:11 pm)Whateverist Wrote: And did he ask before he started undressing her?

(January 16, 2018 at 3:16 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 12:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Exactly this^

Waiting to have sex until you at least have a relationship with someone. Imagine such a radical idea.

Yes but at the same time, no number of dates = I get to undress you and help you over your shyness by insisting.  Nope.  I want to know a woman is into it too.  You can be light hearted about it, like "who else feels like getting naked?"  Or "You know what I feel like doing?  Making out!"  Hey, it works.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:29 pm)wallym Wrote: I can tell you, as a man, I'm not surprised by this at all.  When everybody was throwing a fit over 'locker room talk.'  That really is locker room talk.  Talking about women as objects is what most of us do when you're not around.  But a lot of guys are going to feign outrage, because they are either ashamed of themselves or trying to sidle up to some ladies.  I suppose one or two of them might actually be decent people.  

Quote:But I think making it very clear to all women what exactly they are dealing with is important.  I don't think we'll see Aziz' career end.  But it's probably fair that someone who framed himself as a feminist/ally take a hit for being a shithead to women.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:53 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 10:37 am)polymath257 Wrote: This is why I usually assume someone isn't interested until they make it *very* clear that they are. But, of course, that often comes across as *my* being uninterested, so they never feel good making an advance.

So, what are people supposed to do if they are interested and not sure if the other person is? if they ask, that is seen as pressure, even if they accept a 'no'. And if there is anything like a power difference, that is hugely bad.

We also seem to think that discomfort is the same as not wanting to continue. I know I have sometimes felt uncomfortable *and* still wanted to continue. My discomfort doesn't make the other person an assaulter.

And don't forget teasing: a means of showing attraction, but preserving face if the other person isn't attracted. How often is *that* misinterpreted? Especially when mixed with discomfort but wanting to continue?

But are we really saying there can't be a legitimate attraction between people at different power levels?

So, yes, it would be good if everyone only had sex when they absolutely knew they wanted to and were absolutely sure the other person wants to and everyone has signed legal documents to that effect. But real people do things they don't necessarily feel comfortable with but still want to do. Real people send mixed signals and those mixed signals are misinterpreted by other real people. And, sometimes, people are not sexually compatible and the sex is bad. Sometimes real people are uncomfortable, still want to go ahead, and regret it afterwards.

I don't know what the solution is here. Real people also get assaulted. Real people also are forced into sex they don't want. Real people are also ignored when they say no. I think there is a difference between being forced and being uncomfortable, but still going ahead. But there are situations where it isn't perfectly clear.

So, what do we expect from real people? Perfect communication at all times? Really? perfect knowledge of self at all times? Really? Perfect understanding of signals put off by others? Really?

All I can say is that I will wait until I get a non-mixed signal. But I am married (and consensually non-monogamous), and I am available, but most people would assume I am not, even if they are interested. How is that to be managed?

Perfect no . A concentrated effort yes. As for being uncomfortable and still wanting it . Uncomfortable still means uncomfortable so you should stop.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:33 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 3:11 pm)Whateverist Wrote: And did he ask before he started undressing her?

Probably not. Most people don't. Most women would probably find it odd and awkward if a man explicitly asked for permission for every step on the way to intercourse.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:40 pm)wallym Wrote: This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.

Quote:But once you start veering off into some weirder shit, you probably need to actively look for some consent.

If she hands you a rubber, after you put it on, you don't need to say "can I put it in you now?" That's safely implied.  But you also don't get to assume you can fuck her in the ass because you gave her a rubber.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:40 pm)wallym Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 3:33 pm)alpha male Wrote: Probably not. Most people don't. Most women would probably find it odd and awkward if a man explicitly asked for permission for every step on the way to intercourse.

This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.  But once you start veering off into some weirder shit, you probably need to actively look for some consent.

If she hands you a rubber, after you put it on, you don't need to say "can I put it in you now?" That's safely implied.  But you also don't get to assume you can fuck her in the ass because you gave her a rubber.