Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist

[John V]

And did he ask before he started undressing her?

Probably not. Most people don't. Most women would probably find it odd and awkward if a man explicitly asked for permission for every step on the way to intercourse.

[Catholic_Lady]

Exactly this^

Waiting to have sex until you at least have a relationship with someone. Imagine such a radical idea.

Yes but at the same time, no number of dates = I get to undress you and help you over your shyness by insisting.  Nope.  I want to know a woman is into it too.  You can be light hearted about it, like "who else feels like getting naked?"  Or "You know what I feel like doing?  Making out!"  Hey, it works.

I agree btw

[The Grand Nudger]

I can tell you, as a man, I'm not surprised by this at all.  When everybody was throwing a fit over 'locker room talk.'  That really is locker room talk.  Talking about women as objects is what most of us do when you're not around.  But a lot of guys are going to feign outrage, because they are either ashamed of themselves or trying to sidle up to some ladies.  I suppose one or two of them might actually be decent people.  

Murderers and rapists and drug dealers and a couple of very fine people. 

Perhaps the problem was that a candidate for president was doing the "locker room talk"........just putting it out there for your consideration. We all know sleazeballs, but there seems to be some notion of decorum when it comes to the office of the presidency, lol.

But I think making it very clear to all women what exactly they are dealing with is important.  I don't think we'll see Aziz' career end.  But it's probably fair that someone who framed himself as a feminist/ally take a hit for being a shithead to women.

That's my takeaway as well.

[polymath257]

This is why I usually assume someone isn't interested until they make it *very* clear that they are. But, of course, that often comes across as *my* being uninterested, so they never feel good making an advance.

So, what are people supposed to do if they are interested and not sure if the other person is? if they ask, that is seen as pressure, even if they accept a 'no'. And if there is anything like a power difference, that is hugely bad.

We also seem to think that discomfort is the same as not wanting to continue. I know I have sometimes felt uncomfortable *and* still wanted to continue. My discomfort doesn't make the other person an assaulter.

And don't forget teasing: a means of showing attraction, but preserving face if the other person isn't attracted. How often is *that* misinterpreted? Especially when mixed with discomfort but wanting to continue?

But are we really saying there can't be a legitimate attraction between people at different power levels?

So, yes, it would be good if everyone only had sex when they absolutely knew they wanted to and were absolutely sure the other person wants to and everyone has signed legal documents to that effect. But real people do things they don't necessarily feel comfortable with but still want to do. Real people send mixed signals and those mixed signals are misinterpreted by other real people. And, sometimes, people are not sexually compatible and the sex is bad. Sometimes real people are uncomfortable, still want to go ahead, and regret it afterwards.

I don't know what the solution is here. Real people also get assaulted. Real people also are forced into sex they don't want. Real people are also ignored when they say no. I think there is a difference between being forced and being uncomfortable, but still going ahead. But there are situations where it isn't perfectly clear.

So, what do we expect from real people? Perfect communication at all times? Really? perfect knowledge of self at all times? Really? Perfect understanding of signals put off by others? Really?

All I can say is that I will wait until I get a non-mixed signal. But I am married (and consensually non-monogamous), and I am available, but most people would assume I am not, even if they are interested. How is that to be managed?

Perfect no . A concentrated effort yes. As for being uncomfortable and still wanting it . Uncomfortable still means uncomfortable so you should stop.

OK, that seems very unreasonable to me. I have *never* been completely comfortable the first time with anyone, even after I knew them for a while. Yes, I was comfortable as I could be, but there is *always* an element of discomfort when with a new person. Moving into new territory with someone is uncomfortable. It's the nature of new things.

[Catholic_Lady]

I do feel sorry for him because I get the sense that he genuinely thought everything that happened was normal. Of course, there's a huge problem with thinking that's normal, and that's what I was talking about earlier. There needs to be some sort of root, societal change here in regards to sexuality and how we see women.

[henryp]

And did he ask before he started undressing her?

Probably not. Most people don't. Most women would probably find it odd and awkward if a man explicitly asked for permission for every step on the way to intercourse.

This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.  But once you start veering off into some weirder shit, you probably need to actively look for some consent.

If she hands you a rubber, after you put it on, you don't need to say "can I put it in you now?" That's safely implied.  But you also don't get to assume you can fuck her in the ass because you gave her a rubber.

[John V]

This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.

Took her back to his apartment.
Kissed her.
Felt her up.
Took off her clothes and his own clothes.

That's a pretty standard path to sex.

But once you start veering off into some weirder shit, you probably need to actively look for some consent.

If she hands you a rubber, after you put it on, you don't need to say "can I put it in you now?" That's safely implied.  But you also don't get to assume you can fuck her in the ass because you gave her a rubber.

And he didn't fuck her in the ass, or anywhere else.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Why is everyone assuming, based on the woman's testimony, that the comedian was the creepy one? How do we know that she wasn't giving off ambiguous hints and/or misleading signals and he was trying to figure her out and be accommodating to her mixed signals. It's not like women never have have unusual desires.

[Catholic_Lady]

Probably not. Most people don't. Most women would probably find it odd and awkward if a man explicitly asked for permission for every step on the way to intercourse.

This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.  But once you start veering off into some weirder shit, you probably need to actively look for some consent.

If she hands you a rubber, after you put it on, you don't need to say "can I put it in you now?" That's safely implied.  But you also don't get to assume you can fuck her in the ass because you gave her a rubber.

As I've stated, I agree that he acted wrongly (though not assault), but what "weirder shit" are you referring to?

[The Grand Nudger]

You're right, NEO, maybe she was asking for it and/or totally into it. 

We're concluding he was a creep because he sounds like a creep.  If she's also a creep that won't make him less creepy.