(January 16, 2018 at 3:40 pm)wallym Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 3:33 pm)alpha male Wrote: Probably not. Most people don't. Most women would probably find it odd and awkward if a man explicitly asked for permission for every step on the way to intercourse.

This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.  But once you start veering off into some weirder shit, you probably need to actively look for some consent.

If she hands you a rubber, after you put it on, you don't need to say "can I put it in you now?" That's safely implied.  But you also don't get to assume you can fuck her in the ass because you gave her a rubber.

This just buys into the shit we teach girls about being passive and not admitting to sexual appetite.  I won't do it.  You'll have a better partner if you let her be more assertive.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:17 pm)wallym Wrote: To the bolded, it is an asymmetric game.  I think the argument would be that it's unbalanced.  That the burden is currently all on the women, while the guy is allowed to try and get away with whatever he can.  Looking for a status quo that spreads the burden out a bit doesn't mean women are helpless children.  It just means that women are baring all the burden, and men are baring none of it.  And that seems stupid.

Just like you don't want women to be treated as children who can't take responsibility for themselves, should men be treated as children who can't take responsibility for their own actions?  



I'm not sure how you balance the two worlds.

I disagree. The proposed metric seems to be, men have to get crystal-clear consent while women can get out of consent in completely ambiguous ways, making confused men guilty of sexual assault. What I propose isn't the current status quo. It's that people take responsibility for themselves. If you don't feel like you gave consent, say no clearly. If you do feel like you consented, keep being sexual with the person. If you want out, say it clearly. Men, if a woman says no, it means no. If a woman says she's uncomfortable, try to find out exactly with what, so you don't wind up in this situation like Ansari. If she says any sexual contact, stop. It's actually very easy. Let's not call anything uncomfortable assault. Let's not treat women like they have no agency. Let's not treat men as if they are automatically predators or as if they can't stop once they've started. This shit is all no-brainer to me.

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Wally, what you're calling locker room talk is also very similar to how women talk about men. We're not fainting violets. The problem with Trump's locker room talk wasn't that he was being crass. It was that he described actual assault, and he ran for POTUS, and he was married. Oh, the chick he was talking about was married too. Men are treated as objects too. Women are sexual.

There has to be a line between "don't rape us" and "omg, we have to run screaming from all of the scary masculine penises or we'll faint!"

Easy in theory, harder to implement in practice.  There's the momentum of the cultural norm to fight against..where men chase and women play hard to get.  Ansari is creepy by degree, not by category.  I think that the two of you are talking around each other, not necessarily disagreeing.  

The status quo allows for a certain amount of coercion or even intimidation within what it considers normal sexual behavior.  Plying a girl with liqour, talking over her objections.  Not taking the first no as a final answer. Isolating her in a secluded place, etc.

The area between not wanting sex and..for any reason, not saying no..is the acceptable boundary..legally speaking, for shitty men. So while some better way of handling this may be a no-bainer..brainless behavior, in this context, is still a norm. Acknowledging that is to acknowledge, conversely....that some amount of "irresponsible" behavior is an expression of cultural norms, panic, and irrationality, more accurately. All of which are common to human beings.

(January 15, 2018 at 10:57 pm)Shell B Wrote: Nothing you have posted is any different from an awkward sexual encounter where one person is less than enthusiastic, but doesn’t say no. Moreover, when she did, he stopped. Also, so what if he put his fingers in her mouth? They were being sexual. Women aren’t children. They’re perfectly capable of articulating what they like and don’t like. Don’t paint us as helpless victims who need to be handled like we have special needs. The guy is bad at sex and couldn’t take ambiguous cues. When it was made unambiguous, he immediately stopped.

Rape is rape. And given what Tizheruk posted, that was tantamount to Ansari trying to rape that young woman.

Put yourself in her place and you wouldn't be so blasé.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:53 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 3:40 pm)wallym Wrote: This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.  But once you start veering off into some weirder shit, you probably need to actively look for some consent.

If she hands you a rubber, after you put it on, you don't need to say "can I put it in you now?" That's safely implied.  But you also don't get to assume you can fuck her in the ass because you gave her a rubber.

This just buys into the shit we teach girls about being passive and not admitting to sexual appetite.  I won't do it.  You'll have a better partner if you let her be more assertive.

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me.  Are you saying try to stick it in her ass without warning, and see how she reacts?

(January 16, 2018 at 3:46 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 3:40 pm)wallym Wrote: This is what I was talking about earlier.  If you're progressing on a standard path to reasonably vanilla sex, it's one thing.

Took her back to his apartment.
Kissed her.
Felt her up.
Took off her clothes and his own clothes.

That's a pretty standard path to sex.

So you just assume that all women should know what a standard path to sex consists of so that any failure on her part to stop you equals consent? Yuck.

(January 16, 2018 at 4:03 pm)Wololo Wrote:

(January 15, 2018 at 10:57 pm)Shell B Wrote: Nothing you have posted is any different from an awkward sexual encounter where one person is less than enthusiastic, but doesn’t say no. Moreover, when she did, he stopped. Also, so what if he put his fingers in her mouth? They were being sexual. Women aren’t children. They’re perfectly capable of articulating what they like and don’t like. Don’t paint us as helpless victims who need to be handled like we have special needs. The guy is bad at sex and couldn’t take ambiguous cues. When it was made unambiguous, he immediately stopped.

Rape is rape. And given what Tizheruk posted, that was tantamount to Ansari trying to rape that young woman.

Put yourself in her place and you wouldn't be so blasé.

I've been in her place, buddy. I've been in a worse place too. Can you say the same? What is your opinion based on? What other people tell you is right and wrong? Piss off.

(January 16, 2018 at 3:02 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 2:58 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: I always think it's funny when people on forums say this. It can never be that they didn't express themselves clearly enough.

In this case this is not so . I challenge you to point out were reading what i wrote was unclear .

Well that's a subjective thing, and I don't really feel like starting down a road that finishes with me being told my reading comprehension sucks. But it's just a funny thing that people say. Blame the other persons reading ability rather than just clarify what you meant.

Many people have been in her place.  Many people have made decisions in that position that are difficult to reconcile after the fact.  You may have been more level headed or vocal than others (to a point) - but that doesn't change the utter commonness of her story.  

She felt uncomfortable, somehow compelled.and really doesn't know why she did what she did.

(January 16, 2018 at 4:03 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Easy in theory, harder to implement in practice. 

Why? I do it just fine.

Quote:The status quo allows for a certain amount of coercion or even intimidation within what it considers normal sexual behavior.  Plying a girl with liqour, talking over her objections.  Not taking the first no as a final answer.  Isolating her in a secluded place, etc.

None of which I'm okay with, excepting maybe the liquor. You have to make a choice there as an adult. If she's already drunk, you need to chill.

I never said the status quo was all good. I said what is being proposed is not good, either. If you tell women that they are helpless long enough, they believe it.