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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:45 pm
(January 16, 2018 at 4:40 pm)wallym Wrote: (January 16, 2018 at 4:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I noticed this as well. Wonder why that is?
Where I see the difference is Shell B wanting women to chiefly be responsible, and others wanting the responsibility to be shared more?
Slow down, champ. That's not at all what I've said or implied. I made it utterly, unmistakably clear a few pages back that I think it is a shared responsibility. Don't strawman me, especially when you're not even responding to me. You're just telling other people what you think I think.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:45 pm
(January 16, 2018 at 4:37 pm)alpha male Wrote: (January 16, 2018 at 4:19 pm)wallym Wrote: I think once you introduce the weird power dynamic stuff, in this case shoving your fingers down her throat, that's not something you can assume you have consent for because she got naked.
Yep, you find out about deviations from standard vanilla sex by trying and seeing if it's accepted. The woman says that he put his fingers in her mouth repeatedly - i.e. she's letting him do it. Why wouldn't he think things were going OK?
The word that kept popping up in the articles was 'trying', which makes me think that there was resistance. But this is just us guessing.
I think the standard would to be very conscious of resistance when trying something abnormal if it was an 'us' event. But it reads more of Aziz getting what Aziz wants and her being a prop. Which goes back to your very valid point that maybe people should have a relationship instead of just fucking after a rushed dinner.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:46 pm
(January 16, 2018 at 4:44 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (January 16, 2018 at 4:41 pm)J a c k Wrote: I’m not blaming the girl, btw. I just fail to see how this dude is a predator.
He chased a girl around the house applying the claw and asking her where she wanted to be fucked until she..by her own account, just lost her damned mind and blew him, lol. That's how. There's a fair bit of leeway between predatory behavior and what can get you collared for a rape.
Do the ladies not know this? 
Holy shit that's not even her account. Chased? Yeesh, dude.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:46 pm
(January 16, 2018 at 4:40 pm)wallym Wrote: (January 16, 2018 at 4:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I noticed this as well. Wonder why that is?
I think the semantics over it being 'assault' is a distraction. I think the issue is whether it's a problem and how to deal with it, which I don't think the divide is as big. Where I see the difference is Shell B wanting women to chiefly be responsible, and others wanting the responsibility to be shared more? So for all the back and forth, I don't think anyone is too far apart in the end.
See I agree with Shell that women need to be empowered to be responsible, ideally before they are raised to be helpless and demure. In the mean time, guys who remain locked in the unconscious dynamics of male assertive/female passive aren't helping. Are they all guilty of assault? Like their 'victims' they are victims of their upbringing. Come on people, stop being victims (and in the mean time: I messages).
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:46 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2018 at 4:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 16, 2018 at 4:41 pm)Shell B Wrote: They'll say it's because society trained us that way. We lack agency, you see.
Khem, I know that this cut and dry shit isn't easy for other people. That doesn't mean that isn't the status quo we should be aiming toward. I don't want the status quo to be that all men are considered rapists until they prove constant enthusiastic consent.
That doesn't seem to be the status quo, though? "They", by the way, will say that our agency is compromised...there's no reason to assert that we lack agency to acknowledge that fact..and to acknowledge that this is exactly the sort of situation that routinely seems to be effective at producing compromised agency. Her story is common..and echoing whatevs from above..there appears to be a strong normative dynamic at play. In that sense they're both victims of their upbringing, if his behavior was completely non-conscious in it's common expression of that predatory dynamic.
@ That's not her account..um, yeah, it is, they bounced the place a bit with her feeling uncomfortable and ansari asking where she wanted to be fucked, lol. I obviously take a grim view of events..but that's because I'm not a creeper, lol.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:48 pm
(January 16, 2018 at 4:45 pm)Shell B Wrote: (January 16, 2018 at 4:40 pm)wallym Wrote: Where I see the difference is Shell B wanting women to chiefly be responsible, and others wanting the responsibility to be shared more?
Slow down, champ. That's not at all what I've said or implied. I made it utterly, unmistakably clear a few pages back that I think it is a shared responsibility. Don't strawman me, especially when you're not even responding to me. You're just telling other people what you think I think.
The male responsibility from what I gathered was to adhere to clear verbal cues. I think that's a lower bar than some of us are proposing. "Don't clearly raper her' is a responsibility for sure, but I think 'chiefly' up to the woman is a fair assessment.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:49 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2018 at 4:53 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(January 16, 2018 at 4:40 pm)wallym Wrote: (January 16, 2018 at 4:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I noticed this as well. Wonder why that is?
I think the semantics over it being 'assault' is a distraction. I think the issue is whether it's a problem and how to deal with it, which I don't think the divide is as big. Where I see the difference is Shell B wanting women to chiefly be responsible, and others wanting the responsibility to be shared more? So for all the back and forth, I don't think anyone is too far apart in the end.
Fair enough. And as I've said, I think there is definitely a problem with how he acted. That is his fault. But it is her fault that she wasn't more clear about wanting to stop when she wanted to stop.
I'm glad we all agree there was no assault.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:50 pm
(January 16, 2018 at 4:45 pm)wallym Wrote: I think the standard would to be very conscious of resistance when trying something abnormal if it was an 'us' event. But it reads more of Aziz getting what Aziz wants and her being a prop.
Yep. She got that feeling when he rushed through dinner - but she went back with him anyway. He's a celebrity. There are plenty of women who will give him what he wants. He thought she was another one.
Quote:Which goes back to your very valid point that maybe people should have a relationship instead of just fucking after a rushed dinner.
Yep.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 4:52 pm
(January 16, 2018 at 4:48 pm)wallym Wrote: (January 16, 2018 at 4:45 pm)Shell B Wrote: Slow down, champ. That's not at all what I've said or implied. I made it utterly, unmistakably clear a few pages back that I think it is a shared responsibility. Don't strawman me, especially when you're not even responding to me. You're just telling other people what you think I think.
The male responsibility from what I gathered was to adhere to clear verbal cues. I think that's a lower bar than some of us are proposing. "Don't clearly raper her' is a responsibility for sure, but I think 'chiefly' up to the woman is a fair assessment.
So, you're take on this isn't even sole female responsibility, but it's also not what I said. Did you not read how I felt about consent? I think you did. Let me make it clear for people reading, since I'm being blatantly misrepresented, that women and men share the responsibility for consent and adhering to the lack thereof.
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RE: Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist
January 16, 2018 at 5:01 pm
(This post was last modified: January 16, 2018 at 5:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A good summary, Shell..to which I would say that I'm sure he thought he was being puckish and sexy...a "whither thou goest" attempt to put one in the end zone. I think he failed in his portion of that shared responsibility, even if she also failed, but I wouldn't call it a criminal failure.
Sex fail.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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