(January 17, 2018 at 4:16 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 4:12 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Another suggestion..and it's not aimed at anyone here, but referencing the bj sets a shitty precedent.  Particularly that a rapist could then conceivably be aware that..if he somehow gets a girl to blow him in what people are willing to entertain as a "bad date gone wrong" he can then use that as a way to discredit the larger (and potentially more serious) allegation.

And if we head down your road, every bj is rape if she says so.

(January 17, 2018 at 4:10 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 4:04 pm)alpha male Wrote: It's something everyone (excluding certain mental disabilities) is capable of learning to do.


Yes, I can think of various reasons. But what's the solution?

1. Such women avoid such situations and work on their assertiveness.

2. No man ever knows if what he's doing is acceptable until after the fact.

I think the first is more reasonable.

Of course people are capable of learning to communicate. That doesn't mean that a lot of women do not feel they cannot, or at least it is not clear at first that they can, for the reasons stated by Jack a few posts up. 
Your list is a tiny bit incomplete.

(January 17, 2018 at 3:43 pm)J a c k Wrote: Assault or no assault...

(Heartspill)

I’m concerned about women being afraid to impose.
He’s having a good time, I don’t want him to think I’m boring. I want to stop, but I want him to stop because he wants to, not because I tell him to. This guy’s a creep, but for some reason I still don’t want him to think I’m lame, so I’ll see how much more I can take. I think he’s gross right now, but I don’t want to hurt his feelings, so I won’t say anything. I feel forced, but I’ll try to filter the way I say it, so his feelings are spared. I don’t want to be a tease, so I can’t get dressed if I’m already naked.

This is a problem. Just typing it was difficult. I was in an abusive relationship in which I was made to feel guilty when I refused sex. He’d even cry. He’d yell. He’d tell me I was making him feel unloved. Was I in love with somebody else? It’s like I owed him sex. Sex was awful. It took so much work on myself to learn that I was capable of shutting him out. I was allowed to send him away. I was my own person and my body belonged to me. I really do empathize with women who are not there yet. I feel the pain of their fear. I can relate, because I treated myself like shit, therefore, I opened the door for others to do it, too. Now I could even come off as a bitch sometimes, and I’m ok with that. I love myself so much that making myself feel comfortable is more important than not being a bitch. I must add that this case is also very different than the one in the article. I was punished for refusing. She didn’t refuse. She wasn’t punished.

Truth is, I learned to treat my body like a second class citizen since I was a child due to assault. When I was assaulted as an adult, I was even left to die. When I read or hear stories about sexual assault, my heart breaks and I want to save them from a future of shame and pain.

I couldn’t even hate my attackers. I was too afraid of them until years later. Now when I hear of one, I hope they rot in prison. I hope any child abuser suffers with a vengeance. I have zero pity.

The reason this case is so concerning to me is because there is a thin line between assault and simply being a creepy dick who wasn’t considerate and missed some signs. I want to be careful about placing an incompetent dumbass in the same category as I’d place the men who hurt me and the ones who have hurt so many other women and men. I believe the type of men (or women) who would rape are less than human and lack heart. I believe they are bad people.

In conclusion:
My heart saddens for women who are afraid of voicing their feelings, and my brain worries about being unfair. Furthermore, I’m very happy that there is a discussion going on (not just here, but everywhere) about this. This is important. I hope it’s productive.

End rant.

(January 17, 2018 at 4:19 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: You said it not me .

(January 17, 2018 at 4:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 3:57 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Nope getting naked does not mean sex it could mean a form of intimacy but not necessarily sex .

"Sex" has many meanings. They performed oral sex on each other according to her description.

My point, and I think what alpha male's underlying point was, is that if you go home from a date and get naked in front of your date, you're sending a pretty strong signal that some form of sexual activity is about to happen.

(January 17, 2018 at 4:12 pm)Industrial Lad Wrote: Her comment about feeling forced came pretty early assuming Tizheruk's quotes are all in chronological order. While it's not "Hand's off, creep!", it's the type of statement that should stop any guy with a sense of empathy. I think it came before the bj and the butt and penis thing.
He still kept sticking his fingers in her mouth.

(January 17, 2018 at 4:22 pm)Shell B Wrote: You're already in a relationship. You bring people into your house who, presumably, understand this relationship. Way fucking different than a first date at someone else's house where you just get naked. Furthermore, I assume you also have sex with these other people you bring into your relationship. Nudity is accepted because you have an established sexual relationship.

Willfully obtuse, I tell you. Being unwilling to accept the subtleties of situations other than your own makes this conversation impossible.

(January 17, 2018 at 4:28 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 4:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: "Sex" has many meanings. They performed oral sex on each other according to her description.

My point, and I think what alpha male's underlying point was, is that if you go home from a date and get naked in front of your date, you're sending a pretty strong signal that some form of sexual activity is about to happen.

And the counterpoint being made is that a person has the right to change their mind about consent at any time. This is why nudity is not consent. It certainly is not a Rubicon.

(January 17, 2018 at 4:05 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Or to put it another way:

If I went on a date, brought that date home, she got naked, and I asked her "Did you want to have sex?", she'd probably think I was a little slow on the uptake.