(January 19, 2018 at 4:10 pm)Khemikal Wrote: The reason that religion is capable of providing a specific danger (as opposed to just a gaggle of shitty people) is that it is a form of organizing those shitty people and leveraging their shittiness to greater effect.

So, yes, people are prone to x y and z...but a milling rabble poses very little threat compared to a mobilized and equipped group of mujahideen - and even more particularly so when they can blend in with or sell themselves as the milling rabble - or when the milling rabble supports their cause directly or indirectly..despite not having the courage of their own convictions..themselves.

Religion's just a tool. Where there's a fucked up will, there's a fucked up way.

Some of the mainstream Atheist movements today, espouse a good deal of same hateful shit brought to us by religion.
Repackaged, refurbished....but the same shit, truly. 

I wouldn't care to live in a world with assholes like that at the helm.

(January 19, 2018 at 4:33 pm)Thena323 Wrote:

(January 19, 2018 at 4:10 pm)Khemikal Wrote: The reason that religion is capable of providing a specific danger (as opposed to just a gaggle of shitty people) is that it is a form of organizing those shitty people and leveraging their shittiness to greater effect.

So, yes, people are prone to x y and z...but a milling rabble poses very little threat compared to a mobilized and equipped group of mujahideen - and even more particularly so when they can blend in with or sell themselves as the milling rabble - or when the milling rabble supports their cause directly or indirectly..despite not having the courage of their own convictions..themselves.

Religion's just a tool. Where there's a fucked up will, there's a fucked up way.

Some of the mainstream Atheist movements today, espouse a good deal of same hateful shit brought to us by religion.
Repackaged, refurbished....but the same shit, truly. 

I wouldn't care to live in a world with assholes like that at the helm.

I really don't think it's even the best tool.  If you compare the Mujahideen to an unorganized rabble then yeh you can say religion has provided this specific danger.  But I think that overlooks secular armed groups that are comparably organized.

Sure, but "the others guys are shitty too" -assuming it were an absolutely true and meaningful comparison, isn't exactly a qualifying remark on why religion..as a tool..presents a specific danger compared to disorganized shitty people.  Ultimately, the reasons that we might want to eliminate "religion" are often very concrete, but there's simply no process of doing so that wouldn't be as bad or worse than whatever it was we were trying to address in doing so.  

Those religions which we do think would be palpably worse than forcefull enforcement -are- banned.  You can't sacrifice a virgin to a volcano. Wer sometimes seperate this in our minds from "religion"..because they doing something to someone. However, that -is- their religion..and all religions are doing something...to someone.

The reason Churches have a property tax exemption is because they are there to serve the community. You don't have to pay to go to church. The employees and upkeep are paid for by optional donations from the people who utilize the Church services at no cost. They also organise charity events, and money raised by the church goes partially to that as well. Lastly, tax exemption reinforces separation of church and state.

(January 19, 2018 at 4:38 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I really don't think it's even the best tool.  If you compare the Mujahideen to an unorganized rabble then yeh you can say religion has provided this specific danger.  But I think that overlooks secular armed groups that are comparably organized.

They weren;t the subject of discussion..but, yeah, obviously, if there were some organized secular separatist front it would be more specifically dangerous than "secular people" are. Amusingly...I doubt that anyone would give a second thought as to what should be done to them and whether or not we should specifically and officially combat not only the group but also it's ideology.

:pewpewpew...pewpew...whump:

@the above
The catholic church pays it;s overhead by collecting welfare, not donations. 1.6 billionUSD, from our government....for example, from 2012 to 2015 alone. Donations haven't been keeping the lights on, which is why they've been shuttering churches.

(January 19, 2018 at 4:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The reason Churches have a property tax exemption is because they are there to serve the community. You don't have to pay to go to church. The employees and upkeep are paid for by optional donations from the people who utilize the Church services at no cost. They also organise charity events, and money raised by the church goes partially to that as well. Lastly, tax exemption reinforces separation of church and state.

I don't think the separation of church and state is clear enough anymore. The churches have very very powerful political lobbies. These need to stop or they should lose tax exempt status.

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To answer the OP's question, absolutely not. People must be able to practice whatever beliefs they want to and not interfere in the practices of others. This is incredibly important.

(January 19, 2018 at 4:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The reason Churches have a property tax exemption is because they are there to serve the community. You don't have to pay to go to church. The employees and upkeep are paid for by optional donations from the people who utilize the Church services at no cost. They also organise charity events, and money raised by the church goes partially to that as well. Lastly, tax exemption reinforces separation of church and state.

Then churches should follow the "no pay, no play" rule. 

And "to serve the community" is ludicrous. They're here to make money, like any other business.

Quote:The reason Churches have a property tax exemption is because they are there to serve the community. You don't have to pay to go to church. The employees and upkeep are paid for by optional donations from the people who utilize the Church services at no cost. They also organise charity events, and money raised by the church goes partially to that as well. Lastly, tax exemption reinforces separation of church and state.

Nonsense mega churches make tons of money and act like a corporation . But are not taxed a cent . And no it does not especially when churches  become a political lobby group .

The similarities between a corporation and a mega church

http://www.whartonibr.com/blog/pastororc...esexplored

http://businessjournalism.org/2014/10/th...achurches/

How religious institutions are becoming a lobby group 
http://law.emory.edu/elj/content/volume-...ative.html

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(January 19, 2018 at 4:59 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(January 19, 2018 at 4:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The reason Churches have a property tax exemption is because they are there to serve the community. You don't have to pay to go to church. The employees and upkeep are paid for by optional donations from the people who utilize the Church services at no cost. They also organise charity events, and money raised by the church goes partially to that as well. Lastly, tax exemption reinforces separation of church and state.

Then churches should follow the "no pay, no play" rule. 

And "to serve the community" is ludicrous. They're here to make money, like any other business.

And even if they did originally intend to make money . They nonetheless do. And it's not by donations

(January 19, 2018 at 4:40 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Sure, but "the others guys are shitty too" -assuming it were an absolutely true and meaningful comparison,  isn't exactly a qualifying remark on why religion..as a tool..presents a specific danger compared to disorganized shitty people.  Ultimately, the reasons that we might want to eliminate "religion" are often very concrete, but there's simply no process of doing so that wouldn't be as bad or worse than whatever it was we were trying to address in doing so.  

Ok so if it's just a comparison between people who have been brought together with mainly religious motivation to commit organized acts of violence then I'd agree that would be more dangerous than a group of disorganized people, purely because they're more organized and efficient. 

The bottom line of my reasoning for wanting to eliminate religion is because I think it's a fictional waste of time.  But it doesn't have anything to do with it being used as a tool to organize military groups that I think have an unreasonable goal.  I think there would be a comparable situation if there were no religion and it was purely secular military groups with unreasonable goals.

 In relation to the main topic is that I'd be surprised if you (Pool) thought for a second that a significant amount of people here want to make religion illegal.  I can think of maybe one atheist on here that would have that opinion.

My opinion about religion being made illegal is pretty much as everyone else has said, it would make a shit situation shitter.  It's comparable to prohibition.  I think a large portion of people have religious tendencies hardwired into them the same way a lot of people have addictive tendencies hardwired into them.

Cath, you just described every community organization. (leaving out the tenuous connection to separation of church and state, which wasn't about money, but about an official religion endorsed by government)