Well, to quote a smart man...all I did was go to the text, look at the context, and do my best to reach the intentions of the author and explain why I think that a hyper-literal interpretation is missing the point.

(January 8, 2018 at 2:57 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: What's up with this?

It's the first step in the ABCs of becoming a Christian (Admit, Believe, Confess) but I always saw it as a rather unhealthy way to reflect upon one's misdeeds. Personally, I think something like "I made a mistake" or "That was terrible of me to do" is a much more beneficial as it is directed toward the action itself. It doesn't make the assumption: I did a bad thing, therefore I'm a bad person. 

What does it really even mean? 

Admit that I'm capable of moral transgressions? Sure, I'll admit that. But that doesn't mean I am anything, does it? 

Does it mean admit that I've commited moral transgressions in the past? I'll admit that too. And while you're at it, I'll probably fail in my moral responsibilities in the future too. I admit it.


Theists: Have I admitted in this post that I'm a sinner? Or is there more to it than that? If so, what's the difference?

Atheists: What do you make of all this "admit you're a sinner" stuff? What do you think motivates it? Is it a good, bad, or ugly way to reflect on moral transgressions?

yes, in the Catholic faith, to admit that I'm capable of moral transgressions..this is a kind of admission that i am a sinner, but it doesn't mean that i'm a bad person it only means that my behavior, my actions was/are bad...
so the assumption is this:
I am a good man who sometimes sins but since I'm a good man, I can improve my behavior because I want to... but if I was a bad person, what sense would it be to try to improve my own behavior? .. we could assumed in advance that our behaviour is good even if in the eyes of others it would be bad,.. because i'm a bad person.
..so in my opinion we're all good only our behavior and our actions and our choices are not always good ... and whether we theists will call it a sin and atheists will call this a moral transgressions .. and so ultimately it all comes down to one.. I did wrong!... i have to/want to fix it
more or less

Perhaps sin is just that part of what we are naturally inclined to do which we ought not do out consideration for social cohesion. It makes sense that social demands would evolve more quickly than our ingrained dispositions. So as a naturally gregarious animal living in large social groups we might have a good number of inclinations which we are required to hold in check because one very strong ingrained inclination is to be accepted by and feel that we belong with our group.

We all want to eat more than our share, nail our neighbors wife and kill the asshole who cut us off but there is tension between giving expression to those dispositions and also preserving our social status. Oh lordy we all have sin in our hearts, but those who heed their conscience will be much loved. No gods required.

(January 22, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Perhaps sin is just that part of what we are naturally inclined to do which we ought not do out consideration for social cohesion.  It makes sense that social demands would evolve more quickly than our ingrained dispositions.  So as a naturally gregarious animal living in large social groups we might have a good number of inclinations which we are required to hold in check because one very strong ingrained inclination is to be accepted by and feel that we belong with our group.  

We all want to eat more than our share, nail our neighbors wife and kill the asshole who cut us off but there is tension between giving expression to those dispositions and also preserving our social status.  Oh lordy we all have sin in our hearts, but those who heed their conscience will be much loved.  No gods required.

(bolding mine)

This is why I contend that the Christian god is a bad creator and tyrant. Rather than change the initial parameters, he creates things that he punishes for acting according to their nature.

It's a highly illogical and immoral system, one of many incoherencies that points to the entire thing being fiction.

(January 22, 2018 at 12:29 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(January 22, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Perhaps sin is just that part of what we are naturally inclined to do which we ought not do out consideration for social cohesion.  It makes sense that social demands would evolve more quickly than our ingrained dispositions.  So as a naturally gregarious animal living in large social groups we might have a good number of inclinations which we are required to hold in check because one very strong ingrained inclination is to be accepted by and feel that we belong with our group.  

We all want to eat more than our share, nail our neighbors wife and kill the asshole who cut us off but there is tension between giving expression to those dispositions and also preserving our social status.  Oh lordy we all have sin in our hearts, but those who heed their conscience will be much loved.  No gods required.

(bolding mine)

This is why I contend that the Christian god is a bad creator and tyrant.  Rather than change the initial parameters, he creates things that he punishes for acting according to their nature.

It's a highly illogical and immoral system, one of many incoherencies that points to the entire thing being fiction.

But if "God" is understood as the greater good, then the fear of God (fear of isolation) would just be a way of amping up conscience to help the poor sinner stay in the fold .. yada, yada, yada.

(January 22, 2018 at 12:36 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(January 22, 2018 at 12:29 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: (bolding mine)

This is why I contend that the Christian god is a bad creator and tyrant.  Rather than change the initial parameters, he creates things that he punishes for acting according to their nature.

It's a highly illogical and immoral system, one of many incoherencies that points to the entire thing being fiction.

But if "God" is understood as the greater good, then the fear of God (fear of isolation) would just be a way of amping up conscience to help the poor sinner stay in the fold .. yada, yada, yada.

Still incredibly inefficient, and backwards thinking. But, you know that, so I'm preaching to the secular choir here.

As a programmer, I just shake my head. Continually patching problems is a surefire sign of bad design.

(January 22, 2018 at 12:42 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(January 22, 2018 at 12:36 pm)Whateverist Wrote: But if "God" is understood as the greater good, then the fear of God (fear of isolation) would just be a way of amping up conscience to help the poor sinner stay in the fold .. yada, yada, yada.

Still incredibly inefficient, and backwards thinking.  But, you know that, so I'm preaching to the secular choir here.

As a programmer, I just shake my head.  Continually patching problems is a surefire sign of bad design.

I know what you mean.  That's why we got out.  Maybe some poor bastards who are still in the myth really do feel the need for the fear of god.  I think my older brother did, he was real bastard.

In the larger view, it's hard to say that people weren't at least trying to express some notion of the greater good - or simple harm avoidance.  They may have made mistakes..confusing conformity with decency, for example...but for the majority of our time on this planet we've had no means of transmitting knowledge other than by word of mouth and memory, and so mistakes like that are relatable.  What does it mean to be good?  It means to be like Bob.  OFC, when a person tells you that, they may remember bob differently than you..and so you walk away thinking "being good is to have bushy eyebrows" when..in point of fact, being like bob was meant to be taken as being generous.  When you tell the story to your grandchildren they won;t know who or wtf a bob is, and so it -becomes- a story about bushy eyebrows.  4k years later...half of the people are glueing on fluff and the other half are shaving and before you know it everyone is killing each other.  It only sounds silly until we remember how many people have died over ghost stories.  

How many people could accurately tell me the story of green eggs and ham even if they did read the original? Why is blasphemy sinful? Maybe bobs last words were "goddamit!". Long story short, you don't tempt the gods no matter how bushy your brows.

(January 22, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Perhaps sin is just that part of what we are naturally inclined to do which we ought not do out consideration for social cohesion.  It makes sense that social demands would evolve more quickly than our ingrained dispositions.  So as a naturally gregarious animal living in large social groups we might have a good number of inclinations which we are required to hold in check because one very strong ingrained inclination is to be accepted by and feel that we belong with our group.  

Nietzsche Wrote:Is it your wish, my brother, to go into solitude? Is it your wish to seek the way to yourself? Then linger a moment, and listen to me.

"He who seeks, easily gets lost. All loneliness is guilt"—thus speaks the herd. And you have long belonged to the herd. The voice of the herd will still be audible in you. And when you will say, "I no longer have a common conscience with you," it will be a lament and an agony. Behold, this agony itself was born of the common conscience, and the last glimmer of that conscience still glows on your affliction.

But do you want to go the way of your affliction, which is the way to yourself? Then show me your right and your strength to do so. Are you a new strength and a new right? A first movement? A self-propelled wheel? Can you compel the very stars to revolve around you?

I thought this was relevant. (The bolded part anyway.)

(January 22, 2018 at 1:02 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(January 22, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Perhaps sin is just that part of what we are naturally inclined to do which we ought not do out consideration for social cohesion.  It makes sense that social demands would evolve more quickly than our ingrained dispositions.  So as a naturally gregarious animal living in large social groups we might have a good number of inclinations which we are required to hold in check because one very strong ingrained inclination is to be accepted by and feel that we belong with our group.  

Nietzsche Wrote:Is it your wish, my brother, to go into solitude? Is it your wish to seek the way to yourself? Then linger a moment, and listen to me.

"He who seeks, easily gets lost. All loneliness is guilt"—thus speaks the herd. And you have long belonged to the herd. The voice of the herd will still be audible in you. And when you will say, "I no longer have a common conscience with you," it will be a lament and an agony. Behold, this agony itself was born of the common conscience, and the last glimmer of that conscience still glows on your affliction.

But do you want to go the way of your affliction, which is the way to yourself? Then show me your right and your strength to do so. Are you a new strength and a new right? A first movement? A self-propelled wheel? Can you compel the very stars to revolve around you?

I thought this was relevant. (The bolded part anyway.)

It is much easier to adopt a relativist stance toward the herd when instant distant communication constantly brings us news of other we's which don't include us, some of which seem a better fit than the shit we're in.  (Looking at you, Donald Trump.)

---

(January 22, 2018 at 12:53 pm)Khemikal Wrote: In the larger view, it's hard to say that people weren't at least trying to express some notion of the greater good - or simple harm avoidance.  They may have made mistakes..confusing conformity with decency, for example...but for the majority of our time on this planet we've had no means of transmitting knowledge other than by word of mouth and memory, and so mistakes like that are relatable.  What does it mean to be good?  It means to be like Bob.  OFC, when a person tells you that, they may remember bob differently than you..and so you walk away thinking "being good is to have bushy eyebrows" when..in point of fact, being like bob was meant to be taken as being generous.  When you tell the story to your grandchildren they won;t know who or wtf a bob is, and so it -becomes- a story about bushy eyebrows.  4k years later...half of the people are glueing on fluff and the other half are shaving and before you know it everyone is killing each other.  It only sounds silly until we remember how many people have died over ghost stories.  

How many people could accurately tell me the story of green eggs and ham even if they did read the original?  Why is blasphemy sinful?  Maybe bobs last words were "goddamit!".  Long story short, you don't tempt the gods no matter how bushy your brows.

Bushy eyebrows in the sky guy?  Screw Him.