(February 1, 2018 at 9:29 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: If these latter two parties could meet each other half way, we'd have a better functioning congress.

It's the refusal to compromise that will kill this country -- no matter how the parties are framed.

Imma have to -strongly- disagree here.  The lefts incredible willingness to compromise on the worst of shit is going to ruin this country.  Rightward drift is a thing. Nine more years of trumpsterism followed up by four of Pences dominionism and you'll see the dems calling klansmen very fine people while they erect jesus monuments outside the courthouses they use to criminalize abortion. They're already corporate shills...so they don't need to move any further on that count.

You're both right.

(February 1, 2018 at 7:11 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(February 1, 2018 at 7:09 pm)shadow Wrote: This is actually the whole reason I'm studying in Denmark - because I studied their society in a transportation geography class and thought it was brilliant. I'm not doing an econ degree, I'm majoring in Business and Environment because I've made it my goal in life to practically implement sustainability.

A kindred spirit.  Prepare for disappointment and lower earning potential.  The playing field isn't level..but that's not a failure of free market dynamics..is actually free market actors leveraging their significant pull (and to a massive extent poor people making choices among the options practically available to them).  Maybe one day you can be one of the good ones that uses the same dirty shit to better effect.  

 

That is my entire goal

"Free market" is a euphemism that means "get the government off our backs so we can steal everything that isn't nailed down."

@shadow
You've got a leg up, there.  It's an achievable goal.  I think that many of our fellow conservationists are too locked into pie in the sky fantasies, forgetting that principles have costs, and so does -environmental- efficiency. Someone has to pay them. The trick is making it the other guy, even better if you can convince him he's getting a great deal.

(February 1, 2018 at 7:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @shadow

You've got a leg up, there.  It's an achievable goal.  I think that many of our fellow conservationists are too locked into pie in the sky fantasies, forgetting that principles have costs, and so does -environmental- efficiency. Someone has to pay them. The trick is making it the other guy, even better if you can convince him he's getting a great deal.

There are a surprising number of business opportunities that are more sustainable and less expensive than how things are conventionally done. It makes sense - there's nothing inherently inexpensive about waste. Like, having windows that let out heat is not only bad for the environment, but it's a waste of money. There's a gradient of overall efficiency there, where there's economic and environmental profit to be made.

Same thing with renewable energy in 2018 - huge profits to be made there. So sustainability is often very efficient, it's just a different paradigm. Often the main cost is in overcoming this path dependency - like, electric cars aren't really more expensive than gasoline ones, but changing our whole society to accommodate them is going to be a hell of a cost, but in a different way. It still makes economic sense in the long run, which is why it can be accomplished through business.

(February 1, 2018 at 7:37 pm)shadow Wrote: There are a surprising number of business opportunities that are more sustainable and less expensive than how things are conventionally done. It makes sense - there's nothing inherently inexpensive about waste. Like, having windows that let out heat is not only bad for the environment, but it's a waste of money.

For the consumer..yes, but not the producer.  All other things being equal...there are better margins and a larger market for less efficient windows  That's the problem in a nutshell.

Quote:Same thing with renewable energy in 2018 - huge profits to be made there.

-and yet...even limiting oneself to just the sustainable alternatives..the cheaper and comparatively less sustainable products are more profitable.

Quote:So sustainability is often very efficient, it's just a different paradigm.

Right, it's getting the consumer to pay more for increased environmental efficiency to offset your capital inefficient product. Think of it this way..no matter what you make, a conservation paradigm will always have the trouble of trying to play catchup to the margins of an exploitative one. Principles incur costs, someone has to pay them, but nobody wants to be that guy.

The free market won;t help you with this, it's powerfully aligned against it even in the absence of entrenched interests and their skullfuckery. Thus, the value of government regulation, and perhaps also education, as a tertiary mover. If you started in this a decade ago, the situation would have been even worse.

(February 1, 2018 at 7:24 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Imma have to -strongly- disagree here.  The lefts incredible willingness to compromise on the worst of shit is going to ruin this country.  Rightward drift is a thing.  Nine more years of trumpsterism followed up by four of Pences dominionism and you'll see the dems calling klansmen very fine people while they erect jesus monuments outside the courthouses they use to criminalize abortion.  They're already corporate shills...so they don't need to move any further on that count.

I agree that sometimes compromise is bad. But the absolute refusal to search for and find common ground, instead preferring a scorched-earth approach, is deadly.

Compromise is not the same as bending over. Done well, it's more like a nice 69.

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(February 1, 2018 at 7:26 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: You're both right.

lol, this is what I'm talkin' about!

(February 1, 2018 at 7:54 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I agree that sometimes compromise is bad. But the absolute refusal to search for and find common ground, instead preferring a scorched-earth approach, is deadly.

Compromise is not the same as bending over. Done well, it's more like a nice 69.

Profound rightward drift says that scorched earth politics are a single party platform.  I can't see how fellating the hard right any further will yield anything but misery..we're already at point break. Compromise is not a virtue in a vacuum.

I'm not personally interested in 69ing, or being 69ed..by those very fine people. I'm waiting for them to die, and I wont have to wait long.