(February 3, 2018 at 6:13 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(February 3, 2018 at 2:21 am)Godscreated Wrote: You were arguing God wasn't triune and that He was triune and I showed that God has always been triune in my post.

"God has always been triune" is what you assert without proof or demonstration, but seriously, what the fuck does this have to do with whether or not the Trinity is illogical? If I tell you that a "square circle" is illogical, do you respond by saying "well, the square circle has always been a square circle"?

It isn't what I assert I gave you proof from the Bible you just want to ignore it so you can continue with your failing argument. We are not discussing square circles because they do not exist and it's a silly thing to even suggest so get with the real thing here and stop trying to divert the conversation. We are discussing a subject that you brought up and you have to assume God is real for this argument or your points are worthless. You have never shown how God isn't triune and the only place you can go for that proof is the Bible, I brought my proof from the Bible. 

Quote:You posted it that way and you were arguing it that way, so the best I can tell is that you intentionally meant that each one is a separate God and that is not true, by nature being triune eliminates the possibility of each being a God.

Grandizer Wrote:On the contrary, when you're the one arguing that the Persons of God are separate from each other, then it is you who is arguing for three Gods.

You sure have a strange way of understanding what I said. I said God is the persons Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In your original post you stated that they were each a different God. Actually you posted originally many contradictions so you could argue any point opposite of the responding Christians, I've backed you up and forced you to settle on one prospective through your own words. You need to stop running around in circles and stand up to what you purpose the Bible says and stop telling me I state things I never stated or stated the opposite of what you claim I say. You might fool others into believing I said things I didn't because they want read all the posts between us, but I can assure you you can not fool me into believing anything other than what I know and know I said.

Quote:Yes and I would think that my previous post established that fact. You can't minimize God nor the three Persons who are God, He is the almighty and no matter what we say or do will minimize God in any way.

Grandizer Wrote:If you say that Jesus is just a part of God, then you are guilty of minimizing him in your conception.

Wrong, I hold Jesus as high as the rest of the Trinity, listen closely, God is the three persons of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The scriptures have shown them to be individual persons and all the same and only God. Each one is God necessarily because they are the triune God. What you claimed is that each was a different God by calling each one a  God. See that little word 'a' I put in bold, when you included that with each person you separated them into individual God's and that can't be because God says I Am the only God.

Quote:Separate - Each is an individual. Analogy, a sound system has a receiver, a amplifier, and speakers three parts combined into one system to make music. They are three divine individuals with the same nature and that is unchanging. I made this clear in my previous post. The truine God is inseparable by necessity meaning they are like minded and have the same nature yet they are three separate persons. If they were inseparable then the salvation of man kind as it is describe in the Bible would not have been possible. They are as I have said inseparable in nature and mind.

Grandizer Wrote:Your analogy would not be suitable for the doctrine of the Trinity. The Persons of God do not share the divinity of God among themselves. They are each God in its entirety. In your analogy, is the receiver the whole system? Is the amplifier the whole system? Are the speakers the whole system?

If you don't want to come off as a Tritheist, don't say Jesus is a part of God.

It was an analogy to show that the three Person's of God have different roles toward the same end, it shows they are all equal to each other, just as the sound systems three parts, if one part of the sound system doesn't operate as it should then there will be no music and with a sound system that is possible. That could never happen with God because the three Persons are like minded and have the same unchanging nature. You are correct that they do not share the divinity because they are all equally and fully divine.
A tri-theist haven't heard that one before and to be such would mean that I would believe as you stated that each of the trinity is a different God. Jesus is fully God and yet one part of the triune God with His on responsibilities, Jesus said this himself. What makes Jesus fully God is His like mindedness and same nature as the Father and Holy Spirit.

Quote:How is it that you can't understand who the Trinity is and what I believe the Trinity to be. I explained this very clearly and yet you think I was speaking of God as a family, when I stated that God is three persons in one with like mindedness and one true nature. They are one God not a family. A family is made up of any number of people of three or more and being human they would never be of the same nature nor like minded. This is why I said the family is to operate like the triune God, so there would always be order to the decision making process of the family.

Grandizer Wrote:If you believe that God is the set of all the Persons of God, and each Person of God is just an element of God, then yes, in this case, God refers just to the family of these divine beings (in your belief). If you don't like that, you're free to adjust your beliefs to match what the official texts on the Trinity say.

You know what you haven't done in this discussion, give the official text of the Trinity and the text I'm referring to is the Bible. I have backed up what I have stated with the Bible, something that should be done by both sides yet you haven't done so. A family is not made up of absolute like minded and of the same nature individuals, so you can forget trying to make it look like I said God was a family, like I said earlier in this post you can't and want fool me in what I have said, and I haven't said God was a family and have denied that God is a family. God is one because the three Persons are like minded and of the same unchanging nature. So you see I haven't tried nor do I need to adjust how I see the Trinity.  

Quote:I notice you completely ignored the Genesis reference where God does state He is of more than one person. You also ignored that when the word LORD is in all caps that the Trinity is being referred to, why?

Grandizer Wrote:Because it has shit all to do with my argument?

  Poor excuse, you ignore both because they prove you're wrong, people who are to stubborn to see they are wrong always ignore the truth. You never wanted help in understanding the Trinity, the only purpose for your post was to prove you knew more about God than the Christians who serve and know Him. You have failed completely, you refuse to use or accept the word from the Bible and that is the only place one can get the information about God unless God divinely gives a person teachings and answers from prayer. 

 GC

(February 4, 2018 at 4:53 am)Godscreated Wrote: It isn't what I assert I gave you proof from the Bible you just want to ignore it so you can continue with your failing argument. We are not discussing square circles because they do not exist and it's a silly thing to even suggest so get with the real thing here and stop trying to divert the conversation. We are discussing a subject that you brought up and you have to assume God is real for this argument or your points are worthless. You have never shown how God isn't triune and the only place you can go for that proof is the Bible, I brought my proof from the Bible.

You are really bad with logic, you know. I don't have to assume the triune God is real to discuss whether it is logical or not. Nor did I even attempt to show that God isn't triune. You are just saying random stuff just because you feel like you need to say something to me, even though you have no clue what points I actually did make and how to address them in a logical manner.

Quote:You sure have a strange way of understanding what I said. I said God is the persons Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In your original post you stated that they were each a different God. Actually you posted originally many contradictions so you could argue any point opposite of the responding Christians, I've backed you up and forced you to settle on one prospective through your own words. You need to stop running around in circles and stand up to what you purpose the Bible says and stop telling me I state things I never stated or stated the opposite of what you claim I say. You might fool others into believing I said things I didn't because they want read all the posts between us, but I can assure you you can not fool me into believing anything other than what I know and know I said.

You did say the Persons of God were not only distinct, but they were separate as well. You also said Jesus is a part of God, not God in its entirety. Therefore, based on your words, you don't believe Jesus is fully God. You may believe he is divine, but not fully God.

Also, I never said anywhere in the OP that each of the Persons of God were a different God (according to the doctrine). You are either deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or your reading comprehension is horrible.

Quote:Wrong, I hold Jesus as high as the rest of the Trinity, listen closely, God is the three persons of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The scriptures have shown them to be individual persons and all the same and only God. Each one is God necessarily because they are the triune God. What you claimed is that each was a different God by calling each one a  God. See that little word 'a' I put in bold, when you included that with each person you separated them into individual God's and that can't be because God says I Am the only God.

Where did I say that each was a God (according to the doctrine)? Are you making shit up on purpose?

Quote:It was an analogy to show that the three Person's of God have different roles toward the same end, it shows they are all equal to each other, just as the sound systems three parts, if one part of the sound system doesn't operate as it should then there will be no music and with a sound system that is possible. That could never happen with God because the three Persons are like minded and have the same unchanging nature. You are correct that they do not share the divinity because they are all equally and fully divine.

The analogy you used tells me that you believe Jesus is just a part of the full God, though.

Quote:A tri-theist haven't heard that one before and to be such would mean that I would believe as you stated that each of the trinity is a different God. Jesus is fully God and yet one part of the triune God with His on responsibilities, Jesus said this himself. What makes Jesus fully God is His like mindedness and same nature as the Father and Holy Spirit.

If each of the Persons of God are just an element of God, then how are they each fully God?

Quote:You know what you haven't done in this discussion, give the official text of the Trinity and the text I'm referring to is the Bible. I have backed up what I have stated with the Bible, something that should be done by both sides yet you haven't done so. A family is not made up of absolute like minded and of the same nature individuals, so you can forget trying to make it look like I said God was a family, like I said earlier in this post you can't and want fool me in what I have said, and I haven't said God was a family and have denied that God is a family. God is one because the three Persons are like minded and of the same unchanging nature. So you see I haven't tried nor do I need to adjust how I see the Trinity.

The Bible doesn't have much (if anything) to say about the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine is an attempt to reconcile observed contradictions in the Bible. If there weren't such contradictions in the Bible, then the Trinity wouldn't have been necessary, and Christians in general wouldn't have to defend the "logic" of the Trinity by referring to it as a "Mystery".

Quote:Poor excuse, you ignore both because they prove you're wrong, people who are to stubborn to see they are wrong always ignore the truth. You never wanted help in understanding the Trinity, the only purpose for your post was to prove you knew more about God than the Christians who serve and know Him. You have failed completely, you refuse to use or accept the word from the Bible and that is the only place one can get the information about God unless God divinely gives a person teachings and answers from prayer.

As you say, GC. Nice having such a stimulating intellectual discussion with you. </sarcasm>

(February 4, 2018 at 5:46 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(February 4, 2018 at 4:53 am)Godscreated Wrote: It isn't what I assert I gave you proof from the Bible you just want to ignore it so you can continue with your failing argument. We are not discussing square circles because they do not exist and it's a silly thing to even suggest so get with the real thing here and stop trying to divert the conversation. We are discussing a subject that you brought up and you have to assume God is real for this argument or your points are worthless. You have never shown how God isn't triune and the only place you can go for that proof is the Bible, I brought my proof from the Bible.

You are really bad with logic, you know. I don't have to assume the triune God is real to discuss whether it is logical or not. Nor did I even attempt to show that God isn't triune. You are just saying random stuff just because you feel like you need to say something to me, even though you have no clue what points I actually did make and how to address them in a logical manner.

I'm not bad at logic, you're bad at listening to what others say and good at inventing things others say. If you do not assume the truine God then you are arguing nothing. You see I didn't say real that's what you say I said, you are continuing to be dishonest in this discussion. To assume God doesn't mean you actually have to believe God exist, it means you have to assume God exist as the triune God to argue any points about about Him being triune. I do not need to say anything to you, I understand who God is and how His triune nature works. I've given you complete information from the Bible that God is triune and that He is three persons that are each fully God and yet one God because of His unchanging nature. How you can't understand this is beyond me and it shows that your logic is faulty and that you will say anything and put words into my mouth that I did not say. This is your only way to try and show you are right in your argument, being all over the place and arguing from both sides of the fence is not logical, it's just shows the weakness of your ideas. The bold sentence is something you have yet to do and until you do all you have to present is your own speculation.

Quote:You sure have a strange way of understanding what I said. I said God is the persons Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In your original post you stated that they were each a different God. Actually you posted originally many contradictions so you could argue any point opposite of the responding Christians, I've backed you up and forced you to settle on one prospective through your own words. You need to stop running around in circles and stand up to what you purpose the Bible says and stop telling me I state things I never stated or stated the opposite of what you claim I say. You might fool others into believing I said things I didn't because they want read all the posts between us, but I can assure you you can not fool me into believing anything other than what I know and know I said.

Grandizer Wrote:You did say the Persons of God were not only distinct, but they were separate as well. You also said Jesus is a part of God, not God in its entirety. Therefore, based on your words, you don't believe Jesus is fully God. You may believe he is divine, but not fully God.

I really hate to say this because I do not believe you're stupid but you are being stupid. I have said from the beginning that The Son is fully God, yet you continue to ignore this, why? Yes they are separate persons if they were not then there would be no triune God, why can't you get this through your mind. Again I will say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each fully God and yet three persons, not different, because they are of one mind and one unchanging nature, this is why the three can be the one God, yes this is hard for the mortal, limited mind of humans to completely understand and I would be a fool if I were to claim I can completely understand how three persons can be one and anyone else that says they can completely understand this is foolish. too. 

Grandizer Wrote:Also, I never said anywhere in the OP that each of the Persons of God were a different God (according to the doctrine). You are either deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or your reading comprehension is horrible.

To start with my reading comprehension is fine and has always been so. Yes you did, you did it in a way so you could take this argument and argue from both sides of the fence, as I've said before you are not fooling me. In the OP you said that each of the persons were fully the one God, this makes them separate Gods and that can't be because they are of one mind and unchanging nature this makes them one God, period. Each are fully God, there is a difference and it seems to escape you. 

Quote:Wrong, I hold Jesus as high as the rest of the Trinity, listen closely, God is the three persons of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The scriptures have shown them to be individual persons and all the same and only God. Each one is God necessarily because they are the triune God. What you claimed is that each was a different God by calling each one a  God. See that little word 'a' I put in bold, when you included that with each person you separated them into individual God's and that can't be because God says I Am the only God.

  

Grandizer Wrote:Where did I say that each was a God (according to the doctrine)? Are you making shit up on purpose?

 How can I be making things up when I'm quoting you, your problem is you do not want to stand behind what you say. You've also never put forth the doctrine from the scriptures so it's you who are making things up. I quoted you in the response just above this one.

Quote:It was an analogy to show that the three Person's of God have different roles toward the same end, it shows they are all equal to each other, just as the sound systems three parts, if one part of the sound system doesn't operate as it should then there will be no music and with a sound system that is possible. That could never happen with God because the three Persons are like minded and have the same unchanging nature. You are correct that they do not share the divinity because they are all equally and fully divine.

Grandizer Wrote:The analogy you used tells me that you believe Jesus is just a part of the full God, though.

That's because you ignore what I say in totality, you want to take parts and use them to as if that's all I said. That's why you can't understand the Bible, you take one part and do not seek to find it's relationship with the rest of the Bible. You use it to disprove parts of the Bible that are true that you can't or won't believe and that is being dishonest. It's sad that you claim so much intelligence and logic and yet you consistently show you are lacking in these areas. You started this post to show that Christians are in error in their beliefs of what the trinity is and you set it up in the OP and now that you have been pushed on the subject you shown the Christians here that you have no idea of who the Trinity is.

Quote:A tri-theist haven't heard that one before and to be such would mean that I would believe as you stated that each of the trinity is a different God. Jesus is fully God and yet one part of the triune God with His on responsibilities, Jesus said this himself. What makes Jesus fully God is His like mindedness and same nature as the Father and Holy Spirit.

Grandizer Wrote:If each of the Persons of God are just an element of God, then how are they each fully God?

See the bold above by me, there's your answer and if you can't accept it or understand it it's not my fault I've explained it as the Bible states it. Your problem is not being a Christian and having the Holy Spirit reveal God's truth to you.

Quote:You know what you haven't done in this discussion, give the official text of the Trinity and the text I'm referring to is the Bible. I have backed up what I have stated with the Bible, something that should be done by both sides yet you haven't done so. A family is not made up of absolute like minded and of the same nature individuals, so you can forget trying to make it look like I said God was a family, like I said earlier in this post you can't and want fool me in what I have said, and I haven't said God was a family and have denied that God is a family. God is one because the three Persons are like minded and of the same unchanging nature. So you see I haven't tried nor do I need to adjust how I see the Trinity.

Grandizer Wrote:The Bible doesn't have much (if anything) to say about the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine is an attempt to reconcile observed contradictions in the Bible. If there weren't such contradictions in the Bible, then the Trinity wouldn't have been necessary, and Christians in general wouldn't have to defend the "logic" of the Trinity by referring to it as a "Mystery".

This is the reason you can't understand the trinity you won't go to the Bible and search for the truth, you just take what other non-believers say and purpose it as a valid argument. Your mistake is trusting those who think they know what they are talking about without researching the entire subject and the subject can only come from the source and the source is the Bible period.
There are no contradictions in the Bible, again you won't study to find the truth. The trinity has nothing to do with supposed contradictions in the scriptures, understand this the trinity existed long before the Bible was written. The trinity is eternal because God is eternal. The "Mystery" of the lives in the minds of the unknowing, that would be Christians and people like you. can we fully understand the trinity, no, in totality it is beyond the human mind, why, because it is outside the nature of humans. So in the sense that we can't understand the trinity totally it is if that's what you want to call it a "Mystery." 

Quote:Poor excuse, you ignore both because they prove you're wrong, people who are to stubborn to see they are wrong always ignore the truth. You never wanted help in understanding the Trinity, the only purpose for your post was to prove you knew more about God than the Christians who serve and know Him. You have failed completely, you refuse to use or accept the word from the Bible and that is the only place one can get the information about God unless God divinely gives a person teachings and answers from prayer.

Grandizer Wrote:As you say, GC. Nice having such a stimulating intellectual discussion with you. </sarcasm>

Are you conceding, you haven't even gone to the Bible to prove me wrong. What's the matter can't you handle someone who sticks with the truth and not change. You know why I don't change and give into your persistent fence jumping it's because I stand with the truth and truth is unchanging. I can tell you this if you can't go to the scriptures and prove what I say is wrong then I can't see where we have anything further to argue. Going around in circles is wasting time that could be better spent else where.

GC

@Grandizer

When you read in the articles that "Jesus is fully God" that means that there is no part of Jesus that is not God. This was an important distinction because some believed that he is a demigod or otherwise less than God (not entirely divine).

It does not mean what you think it means: that the person of Jesus encapsulates all it means to be God.

Quote:

• Dyophysitism understands Christ as having two natures that exist in one person. This is the position of the council of Chalcedon (451), the Roman Catholic Church and many Protestant churches.
  
  
• Miaphysitism understands Christ as having only one nature—but that this nature includes both humanity and divinity.
  
  
• Monophysitism (word-wise, the more precise opposite of Dyophysitism) understood Christ as having only a single nature, and this nature was either divine or a human/divine synthesis.
  
  
• Docetism holds that Christ only appears to be human.
  
  
• Adoptionism holds that Christ was a man—but one who was chosen by God.
  
  
• Nestorianism stressed the distinction between the divine and the human Christs so much so that it appeared that two persons were living in the same body.
  
  
• Eutychianism stressed the unity of Christ's nature—but to such an extent that Christ's divinity consumed his humanity...as the ocean consumes a drop of vinegar.
  

What's amazing is how people died because of this happy horseshit.  All of it just words on a page.

But we have triclavianism consigned to the ash heap of history, FINALLY !!!

Seriously, I'm pretty charged about that one.

Ye of so little faith:

(January 31, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.

The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.

The Father is fully the one God.

The Son is fully the one God.

The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.

They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?

Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.

Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe).

The Trinity is necessary. Some have asked this question: How is it that a being from everlasting to everlasting with immense power doesn't get disinterested in existence? Among the members of the Trinity, there's not only lots of love, not just humongous amounts of love but infinity love.  If God were one and only one, he could not possess or experience love, and hence would not have included it in creation, or perhaps, would have been motivated to create the cosmos at all. Love is an expression of compassion and affection one person to another person; therefore, God in 3 persons is necessary.

Whatever floats your boat, moron.

(February 6, 2018 at 9:02 pm)snowtracks Wrote: The Trinity is necessary.

Only to you.  I doubt gods have much use for it.

Quote:Some have asked this question: How is it that a being from everlasting to everlasting with immense power doesn't get disinterested in existence?

It's an amusing question..but seeing what follows makes me wonder about it's inclusion in this post.

Quote:Among the members of the Trinity, there's not only lots of love, not just humongous amounts of love but infinity love.  If God were one and only one, he could not possess or experience love, and hence would not have included it in creation, or perhaps, would have been motivated to create the cosmos at all.

Odd, I'm under no such limitation, even though I'm "one" and in spite of the fact that I don't have "infinity love".

Quote:Love is an expression of compassion and affection one person to another person; therefore, God in 3 persons is necessary.

You're still having trouble with that "therefore" bit, huh?