(March 1, 2018 at 6:44 am)SaStrike Wrote:

(March 1, 2018 at 6:33 am)Grandizer Wrote: To be very clear, I am not saying she's not a powerful player. I am saying that, so far from what I see, she isn't as great a player as the media is trying to make her out to be. She surpassed previous record holder by 2 points, and she had 75 attempts to do so, out of which she was good 44%. The question is, how did these attempts emerge? It's possible her teammates just simply gave her the ball most of the time to let her have at it. Or maybe it really is her physicality.

Actually, the more important question is: is she an outlier? Or is she representative of some trend indicating that transwomen are smashing their competition? Like I said earlier, you have at best two cases out of God knows how many total cases. 2 is a very small number to make good logical inferences from. And that's one of the main points to consider here.

Another question is what are the various factors that makes players like Fallon and Tiffany great players? Is having a good physicality more than enough? Or could it be that they've played against men in the past and so have accumulated skill-building/boosting experience that other women don't get to normally experience?

We also do need to ensure we're not going to find the tiniest bit of excuse to marginalize transgendered/transsexual people even more just because whatever it is they do isn't making some of us happy.

Nicely done. I agree, people do tend to marginalize, but is it really a tiny bit of an excuse this case? And I don't mean this specific case. Say for example if it is actually proven and accepted that transwomen do have an unfair advantage in sports vs regular women (again IF). Do you agree then with banning transwomen from competing in official female sports? Or will it be wrongfully marginalizing?

If indeed there is a trend clearly showing that transwomen are dominating their respective competitions, then some other measure does need to be taken to ensure that cisgendered women do not have to face such unfair hurdles. What exactly? I don't know, not up to me. But this is hypothetical right now, and we're not seeing any conclusive evidence that any drastic measure needs to be taken.

"Bigot" was used to much on this thread, I had to go through 10 pages until some healty conversation was found. We are discussing in order to educate ourselfs , it's not like we are going to change something from this forum.

(February 28, 2018 at 11:09 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 11:04 pm)A Theist Wrote: Okay. That wasn't my question, though. I just wanted your opinion on what I asked, aside from the sports. A person who was born male but identifies as a woman and hasn't lowered their testosterone levels, is that person male or female, in your opinion?

They're female because that's how their brain is wired and because I respect the fact that they identify as such.

If that's your opinion then wouldn't you think that the regulations monitoring hormone levels to ensure fair competition among women would be discriminating against transgender females? Otherwise, wouldn't you be saying they're still men?

(March 1, 2018 at 8:53 am)A Theist Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 11:09 pm)Grandizer Wrote: They're female because that's how their brain is wired and because I respect the fact that they identify as such.

If that's your opinion then wouldn't you think that the regulations monitoring hormone levels to ensure fair competition among women would be discriminating against transgender females? Otherwise, wouldn't you be saying they're still men?

No, they're women as far as their gender/sex is concerned. The problem is that with transgendered and transsexual women, their bodies are too strong for cisgendered women. So when it comes to women's sports, we can't overlook such a distinction. In the case of F-to-M, this isn't much of an issue as men aren't disadvantaged by transmen who compete with them.

(February 28, 2018 at 10:57 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 10:49 pm)A Theist Wrote: If a person who was born male but identifies as a female and hasn't lowered their testosterone levels, that person is still a man, in your opinion?

Ok, perhaps its not clear to you that there are regulations set in place to ensure fair competition among women in sports, and that includes ensuring hormone levels of transwomen are adjusted and tested to match cisgendered women. They have to go through this procedure, it's not like it's optional.

Which means there's no excuse to ban transwomen besides transphobia.

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(February 28, 2018 at 11:04 pm)A Theist Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 10:57 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, perhaps its not clear to you that there are regulations set in place to ensure fair competition among women in sports, and that includes ensuring hormone levels of transwomen are adjusted and tested to match cisgendered women. They have to go through this procedure, it's not like it's optional.

Okay. That wasn't my question, though. I just wanted your opinion on what I asked, aside from the sports. A person who was born male but identifies as a woman and hasn't lowered their testosterone levels, is that person male or female, in your opinion?

Obviously a female transwoman is female.

(March 1, 2018 at 1:09 am)SaStrike Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 11:18 pm)Shell B Wrote: Being a bigger woman, that’s not my impression. I know loads of guys I could take. Men aren’t naturally athletic. Humans are. Both men and women get fat or fit dependent on their lifestyles. Now, men do tend to be stronger than women, but women aren’t any less athletic.

Females are less athletic though. Because most athletics events at the Olympics (even those without the use of much strength) males are doing better. Not trying to turn it into a male vs female pissing contest (I think females win that contest)

Since when is athleticism contingent on who is in the Olympics?

(March 1, 2018 at 9:33 am)Grandizer Wrote: No, they're women as far as their gender/sex is concerned. The problem is that with transgendered and transsexual women, their bodies are too strong for cisgendered women. So when it comes to women's sports, we can't overlook such a distinction. In the case of F-to-M, this isn't much of an issue as men aren't disadvantaged by transmen who compete with them.

Their bodies are too strong?  That's...vague, and who says that? 

Female athletes, who could transition....for their part, have not reached either their peak of competition or the level of research we've put into male athletes, and appear to be crushing men in extreme endurance sports as their participation in athletics increases.  If they can already beat mean in the ultras, for example...a little bit of doping would probably make their win even bigger.  So, if we're asserting that..somehow, transitioning provided advantages..then it would provide advantages to f-m transitions as well.

That's sort of the amusing thing about the discussion..because a m-f transition is what most people are concerned with, but it's the explicit process of eliminating exactly what it is we assume provides an advantage, while f-m transitioning is..effectively, doping...and so it -should- provide, rather than eliminate, said advantage.

...and yet.....

Even if all transgendered women were "too strong" compared to all cisgendered women.... what's wrong with transwomen winning? Are only ciswomen allowed to win?

If it were the case that they were too strong compared to all cis women, then only trans women would win. True fairness considers both sides. Eventually, we'll sort it out so everyone has a fair shot.

(February 28, 2018 at 11:18 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 9:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The cool thing about being a runner in high school/college is that in track and cross country the guys and girls team are one and train together and go to the races together (though the men's race and women's race are run seperately). But being in a team with them instead of doing everything seperately allowed me to see and appreciate how much more naturally athletic amd strong men are. It's pretty sexy actually.

Being a bigger woman, that’s not my impression. I know loads of guys I could take. Men aren’t naturally athletic. Humans are. Both men and women get fat or fit dependent on their lifestyles. Now, men do tend to be stronger than women, but women aren’t any less athletic.

By "more athletic than women," I meant they are stronger and faster, have more muscle mass, etc.... basically, better at physical sports that involve those things (which the vast majority do). In my case, much better runners since that's the sport I was in. I wasn't referring to looks or being fat vs fit.