(February 28, 2018 at 11:04 pm)A Theist Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 10:57 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, perhaps its not clear to you that there are regulations set in place to ensure fair competition among women in sports, and that includes ensuring hormone levels of transwomen are adjusted and tested to match cisgendered women. They have to go through this procedure, it's not like it's optional.

Okay. That wasn't my question, though. I just wanted your opinion on what I asked, aside from the sports. A person who was born male but identifies as a woman and hasn't lowered their testosterone levels, is that person male or female, in your opinion?

They're female because that's how their brain is wired and because I respect the fact that they identify as such.

(February 28, 2018 at 9:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 12:19 am)wallym Wrote: I think a big shortcoming in these discussions is just progressives tending to be shit at sports, so when any sports related discussions come up, they're just saying a lot of nonsense.

The cool thing about being a runner in high school/college is that in track and cross country the guys and girls team are one and train together and go to the races together (though the men's race and women's race are run seperately). But being in a team with them instead of doing everything seperately allowed me to see and appreciate how much more naturally athletic amd strong men are. It's pretty sexy actually.

Being a bigger woman, that’s not my impression. I know loads of guys I could take. Men aren’t naturally athletic. Humans are. Both men and women get fat or fit dependent on their lifestyles. Now, men do tend to be stronger than women, but women aren’t any less athletic.

(February 28, 2018 at 11:18 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 9:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The cool thing about being a runner in high school/college is that in track and cross country the guys and girls team are one and train together and go to the races together (though the men's race and women's race are run seperately). But being in a team with them instead of doing everything seperately allowed me to see and appreciate how much more naturally athletic amd strong men are. It's pretty sexy actually.

Being a bigger woman, that’s not my impression. I know loads of guys I could take. Men aren’t naturally athletic. Humans are. Both men and women get fat or fit dependent on their lifestyles. Now, men do tend to be stronger than women, but women aren’t any less athletic.

Females are less athletic though. Because most athletics events at the Olympics (even those without the use of much strength) males are doing better. Not trying to turn it into a male vs female pissing contest (I think females win that contest)

(February 28, 2018 at 8:32 pm)shadow Wrote: As a competitive athlete (track and field) myself, this is one place where people definitely need to be slotted by their biological sex. I think track is a good sport for comparison, because the men's and woman's performances can be measured totally quantitatively and are very distinct. Look at the results of any track meet and you'll see that the men's and women's performances are clearly separate categories, and even a slow male athlete would easily win the women's division.

I've always loved the extremely close competition in track (like, a good race can easily come down to a 100th of a second... I've even won a race by 1/1000th of a second), and while I train with guys and run against them in practice, there would be no competition if sexes were combined. The margins are so tight that women would be unable to qualify for any tournaments. Let alone in the runs, but in the throwing events? The simple reason is that women biologically have less muscle than men, even with the same amount of training.

If I were competing in a track meet and there were a trans woman in my section, I and every other competitor and coach would be extremely pissed off. It would completely ruin the race. It's has nothing to do with being trans-phobic, it's just a matter of biology.

Lol that's where you're wrong,
trans women =/= men dressing up as women.
Seriously. Half the debate would be solved if everyone was on the same page. For those of you that aren't up to date, the only issue remaining is whether the trans women are weakened enough to the level of a normal women in order to compete, I'd trust the medical professionals on that but apparently some people think they need to be much further weakened, they don't know up to what degree but probably up to a degree where it's impossible for them to win anything.

(March 1, 2018 at 2:28 am)pool the matey Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 8:32 pm)shadow Wrote: As a competitive athlete (track and field) myself, this is one place where people definitely need to be slotted by their biological sex. I think track is a good sport for comparison, because the men's and woman's performances can be measured totally quantitatively and are very distinct. Look at the results of any track meet and you'll see that the men's and women's performances are clearly separate categories, and even a slow male athlete would easily win the women's division.

I've always loved the extremely close competition in track (like, a good race can easily come down to a 100th of a second... I've even won a race by 1/1000th of a second), and while I train with guys and run against them in practice, there would be no competition if sexes were combined. The margins are so tight that women would be unable to qualify for any tournaments. Let alone in the runs, but in the throwing events? The simple reason is that women biologically have less muscle than men, even with the same amount of training.

If I were competing in a track meet and there were a trans woman in my section, I and every other competitor and coach would be extremely pissed off. It would completely ruin the race. It's has nothing to do with being trans-phobic, it's just a matter of biology.

Lol that's where you're wrong,
trans women =/= men dressing up as women.
Seriously. Half the debate would be solved if everyone was on the same page. For those of you that aren't up to date, the only issue remaining is whether the trans women are weakened enough to the level of a normal women in order to compete, I'd trust the medical professionals on that but apparently some people think they need to be much further weakened, they don't know up to what degree but probably up to a degree where it's impossible for them to win anything.

Her record breaking volleyball results differ with your loosely thrown in medical professional evidence though. Also see Caster Semenya (beat international female runners with ease and won gold medals at age 17)

(March 1, 2018 at 3:42 am)SaStrike Wrote:

(March 1, 2018 at 2:28 am)pool the matey Wrote: Lol that's where you're wrong,
trans women =/= men dressing up as women.
Seriously. Half the debate would be solved if everyone was on the same page. For those of you that aren't up to date, the only issue remaining is whether the trans women are weakened enough to the level of a normal women in order to compete, I'd trust the medical professionals on that but apparently some people think they need to be much further weakened, they don't know up to what degree but probably up to a degree where it's impossible for them to win anything.

Her record breaking volleyball results differ with your loosely thrown in medical professional evidence though. Also see Caster Semenya (beat international female runners with ease and won gold medals at age 17)

Caster Semenya is not a transwoman!

And again, Tiffany is just one example of a transwoman dominating sports. You know what other people dominate their respective sports? Cisgendered men and women!

(March 1, 2018 at 3:49 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(March 1, 2018 at 3:42 am)SaStrike Wrote: Her record breaking volleyball results differ with your loosely thrown in medical professional evidence though. Also see Caster Semenya (beat international female runners with ease and won gold medals at age 17)

Caster Semenya is not a transwoman!

And again, Tiffany is just one example of a transwoman dominating sports. You know what other people dominate their respective sports? Cisgendered men and women!

But the "gap of dominance" isn't as obvious. Also what should be taken into account is the number of people and the probability. What are the odds of the one transgender woman participating to actually have that much of a gap? Where as for your claim of cisgender dominance, it's like once every few years or even decades where a participant achieves that level of dominance.

(March 1, 2018 at 4:00 am)SaStrike Wrote:

(March 1, 2018 at 3:49 am)Grandizer Wrote: Caster Semenya is not a transwoman!

And again, Tiffany is just one example of a transwoman dominating sports. You know what other people dominate their respective sports? Cisgendered men and women!

But the "gap of dominance" isn't as obvious. Also what should be taken into account is the number of people and the probability. What are the odds of the one transgender woman participating to actually have that much of a gap? Where as for your claim of cisgender dominance, it's like once every few years or even decades where a participant achieves that level of dominance.

Considering she's competed against men in the past, and so is not a rookie, the odds are pretty good. But again, you're going by one (or at best two examples here). Where are all the other transwomen dominating their respective sports?

Also, this:

Quote:Tiffany killed 44% of the 75 attempts she did during trhe match. These 75 balls mean 51% of all attacks of her team in the match that’s why so scored many points. She is a good player, but the % shows she is like the other players in the league. Other opposites, like Renatinha (Fluminense) were better than her facing Praia (50/ 25 = 50% attack).

http://www.volleywood.net/volleyball-rel...as-record/

So the gap of dominance is?

(March 1, 2018 at 2:28 am)pool the matey Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 8:32 pm)shadow Wrote: As a competitive athlete (track and field) myself, this is one place where people definitely need to be slotted by their biological sex. I think track is a good sport for comparison, because the men's and woman's performances can be measured totally quantitatively and are very distinct. Look at the results of any track meet and you'll see that the men's and women's performances are clearly separate categories, and even a slow male athlete would easily win the women's division.

I've always loved the extremely close competition in track (like, a good race can easily come down to a 100th of a second... I've even won a race by 1/1000th of a second), and while I train with guys and run against them in practice, there would be no competition if sexes were combined. The margins are so tight that women would be unable to qualify for any tournaments. Let alone in the runs, but in the throwing events? The simple reason is that women biologically have less muscle than men, even with the same amount of training.

If I were competing in a track meet and there were a trans woman in my section, I and every other competitor and coach would be extremely pissed off. It would completely ruin the race. It's has nothing to do with being trans-phobic, it's just a matter of biology.

Lol that's where you're wrong,
trans women =/= men dressing up as women.
Seriously. Half the debate would be solved if everyone was on the same page. For those of you that aren't up to date, the only issue remaining is whether the trans women are weakened enough to the level of a normal women in order to compete, I'd trust the medical professionals on that but apparently some people think they need to be much further weakened, they don't know up to what degree but probably up to a degree where it's impossible for them to win anything.

You still can't really compensate for all physiological differences, like the fact that women have wider hips, higher body fat content, or are naturally shorter. These are very important to consider when you're at a high level of sport!

The thought of intentionally 'weakening' an athlete is cruel. It goes so strongly against the nature of competitive sport. I can give it some more thought when I have more time, because I've never thought of this academically. I'm just going on pure common sense from ~10 years of competing, and my understanding of the whole spirit of competitive athletics. I haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone provided an actual academic study on the effect of hormone treatment on a man's athletic capability? I think that would be relevant here. I can search academic journals about this later today if no one else has something credible.

---

(February 28, 2018 at 10:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 8:32 pm)shadow Wrote: As a competitive athlete (track and field) myself, this is one place where people definitely need to be slotted by their biological sex. I think track is a good sport for comparison, because the men's and woman's performances can be measured totally quantitatively and are very distinct. Look at the results of any track meet and you'll see that the men's and women's performances are clearly separate categories, and even a slow male athlete would easily win the women's division.

I've always loved the extremely close competition in track (like, a good race can easily come down to a 100th of a second... I've even won a race by 1/1000th of a second), and while I train with guys and run against them in practice, there would be no competition if sexes were combined. The margins are so tight that women would be unable to qualify for any tournaments. Let alone in the runs, but in the throwing events? The simple reason is that women biologically have less muscle than men, even with the same amount of training.

If I were competing in a track meet and there were a trans woman in my section, I and every other competitor and coach would be extremely pissed off. It would completely ruin the race. It's has nothing to do with being trans-phobic, it's just a matter of biology.

I made my post about how we trained with the guys in running *before* I saw this post lol.

I think as runners we definitely have a better awareness of the biophysical differences between men and women, athletically, because we train together and because we can measure someone's ability exactly since it's all measured by time.

(Edited)

Yes, exactly. It's like the two categories train relatively the same, but margins in track are so refined that it wouldn't make any sense at all to run them together at all in competition. Since it's measured so precisely, the difference becomes clear.

Out of curiosity, what track events do/did you compete in? I think you said you ran cross country, so I'm assuming long or middle distance?

(March 1, 2018 at 4:10 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(March 1, 2018 at 4:00 am)SaStrike Wrote: But the "gap of dominance" isn't as obvious. Also what should be taken into account is the number of people and the probability. What are the odds of the one transgender woman participating to actually have that much of a gap? Where as for your claim of cisgender dominance, it's like once every few years or even decades where a participant achieves that level of dominance.

Considering she's competed against men in the past, and so is not a rookie, the odds are pretty good. But again, you're going by one (or at best two examples here). Where are all the other transwomen dominating their respective sports?

Shifting the burden of proof? Anyway we are referring to this case. if You want to refer to other cases where transwomen aren't dominating female sports, you find other cases where transwomen are competing and aren't dominating female sports. Otherwise it could be assumed that either they are not competing in official sports or that their cases aren't getting media coverage. (and when they do, records get broken etc etc, see case above)