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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:27 pm
(April 22, 2018 at 10:23 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Is it free, in some sense? What sense?
In the sense that the choice is always available.
Knowledge of what is going to happen in no way impedes choice. It's the simplest way of explaining it, right there.
The "knowledge" factor is what is holding you back from the logic of the situation. You ill-logically think that knowledge of what will be automatically negates free will.
The only negation of free will is an impeding of choice, meaning there is a willful force preventing you from being capable of choosing.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:29 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 10:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 22, 2018 at 10:27 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: (April 22, 2018 at 10:23 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Is it free, in some sense? What sense?
In the sense that the choice is always available.
Knowledge of what is going to happen in no way impedes choice. It's the simplest way of explaining it, right there. But we're discussing free will, not choice. As I said before, you could say you chose a...but we're still searching for the sense in which that choice was somehow free.
Quote:The "knowledge" factor is what is holding you back from the logic of the situation. You ill-logically think that knowledge of what will be automatically negates free will.
The only negation of free will is an impeding of choice, meaning there is a willful force preventing you from being capable of choosing.
Okay...and if you can't choose b..because x knows the future/the future is knowable and you will choose a...then...........?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:31 pm
(April 22, 2018 at 10:29 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Okay...and if you can't choose b..because x knows the future/the future is knowable and you will choose a...then...........?
There's no "can't". There's another hang-up of yours.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 10:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Right, I get that you believe that....that you don't think the universe works that way..the omni god conjecture states that it does. You cant do other than what god knows you will. You can't choose b, gods knows you're going to choose a.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm
(April 22, 2018 at 10:22 pm)henryp Wrote: (April 22, 2018 at 10:10 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The thing is "back through time" would mean, past, present, future is some sort of stream that all exists at once. If this is true, then indeed free-will is impossible per the argument shown. He would have the illusion of free-will, but if the future is discovered, he can't choose otherwise, if it's truly a determined inescapable future.
Past present and future is a stream that all exists at once, but think of it as a branching stream rather than a single path.
You're in a canoe going down a river and come to a fork. You go right. You get out of the water. Walk back a mile or so and get back in. You come to the fork in the river again. This time you go left.
This type of future you speak about exists not in the sense it's already has been done but it exists in possibilities and probabilities, and some of is set and cannot be changed in knowledge.
The Jinn I believe can temporarily estimate states of the future, but they can never know fully, and they been trying to get accurate, but they will continue only be disappointed as long as they don't submit to the Master appointed to represent God, who is revealed things in summary and then the plan in details as things go a long, and with God establishes and erases what he pleases.
However if the future is set in stone type future, then that future cannot be changed right, and that is where free-will is impossible.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:33 pm
(April 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Right, I get that you believe that....that you don;t think the universe works that way..the omni god conjecture states that it does. You cant do other than what god knows you will.
Well, that's probably where we're getting confused. You're buying into the Omni-god conjecture, while I'm not.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:36 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 10:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
People have called me alot of things...but I don't think I've ever been accused of that, lol. 
What I'm pointing out, is that -if- that conjecture is true, it's a problem for classical free will. That's the position you've been attempting to argue against, as somehow not making sense. It makes sense, even if neither of us buys into that god story or thinks that the universe works that way. If it did work that way, if a god did have that incorrigible knowledge (if there so much as -was- any such incorrigible knowledge)....then what would the meaningful freedom be in your choice? You could have choices galore..but no freedom in a or b in them, at all.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:36 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 10:37 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(April 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However if the future is set in stone type future, then that future cannot be changed right, and that is where free-will is impossible.
Even you get it when Lut doesn't lol.
Lut says it doesn't mean it's set in stone... when we're specifically talking about a universe in which it is lol.
(April 22, 2018 at 10:33 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: (April 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Right, I get that you believe that....that you don;t think the universe works that way..the omni god conjecture states that it does. You cant do other than what god knows you will.
Well, that's probably where we're getting confused. You're buying into the Omni-god conjecture, while I'm not.
The premise of the argument was "if an omniscient being existed and knew the future then free will would be impossible" and you say it wouldn't even in that case, so you can't use the "well I don't believe in it" excuse as a cop-out, lol.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:37 pm
(April 22, 2018 at 10:36 pm)Khemikal Wrote: People have called me alot of things...but I don't think I've ever been accused of that, lol.
What I'm pointing out, is that -if- that conjecture is true, it's a problem for classical free will. That's the position you've been attempting to argue against, as somehow not making sense. It makes sense, even if neither of us buys into that god story or thinks that the universe works that way.
I understand your "if" scenario. I was just joshing up above.
However, even under the "if" scenario, I don't see the logic you're attempting to apply.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 22, 2018 at 10:42 pm
Well you've been shown it repeatedly, it's a pity you don't see it.
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