If God knows 100% what I will choose to do in the future, then I will not but choose that which God knows I will choose. If I end up choosing something else instead, then God didn't correctly predict that I would do this. So there goes another major problem for the classical god.

(April 22, 2018 at 10:51 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(April 22, 2018 at 10:46 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: The term "inevitability" is incorrect, from my perspective.  There is no such thing.  Wouldn't you agree?

Again, that would address our personal positions on whether or not the universe works that way, whether or not there's such a thing as an inevitability.  Whether or not the criticism of omniscience as it relates to future knowledge is a logical one, that follows from it's assumptions..is something else entirely.

The sort of future knowledge being alleged in the case of cassandra and omni gods..opposed to random hedge witches (I don't believe in any of this shit, lol), is a certain inevitability.  If there was such knowledge, or if such knowledge were possessed...this has a deleterious effect on classical free will.  You can;t choose b at all.  You will choose a.  OIt;s a certain inevitability.  Known to be so, in advance of you have ever been aware that you wopuld even be making any choice.  

In the case of omni god...all of the future spread out as an inevitable tapestry of certainty before the beginning, lol. 

Again, I don't see how you're equating knowledge of certainty to lack of free will. The choice will always be there, despite the knowledge that A will be chosen over B. You seem to lack the incapability of understanding that for some reason. Yes, free will is tied directly to choice.

What choice?  Can you choose b if a is an inevitably certainty? Is this a free choice? In what sense?

I don;t think that free will is somehow tied or synonymous with choice..and I doubt that it;s a lack of understanding that brings me to that skeptical position. Choice is selection. No free will required. If omni god has incorrigible knowledge of the future (or if such knowledge exists)..there's no free will to be had in choice anyway. Personally, I think it lends itself well to superstition...but there may be a reason that we concieve of our selections as meaningfully free choices.

(April 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 22, 2018 at 10:22 pm)henryp Wrote: Past present and future is a stream that all exists at once, but think of it as a branching stream rather than a single path.

You're in a canoe going down a river and come to a fork.  You go right.  You get out of the water.  Walk back a mile or so and get back in.  You come to the fork in the river again.  This time you go left.

This type of future you speak about exists not in the sense it's already has been done but it exists in possibilities and probabilities, and some of is set and cannot be changed in knowledge.

The Jinn I believe can temporarily estimate states of the future, but they can never know fully, and they been trying to get accurate, but they will continue only be disappointed as long as they don't submit to the Master appointed to represent God, who is revealed things in summary and then the plan in details as things go a long, and with God establishes and erases what he pleases. 

However if the future is set in stone type future, then that future cannot be changed right, and that is where free-will is impossible.

Do you believe your God exists inside time, or outside it?

(April 22, 2018 at 10:57 pm)henryp Wrote:

(April 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This type of future you speak about exists not in the sense it's already has been done but it exists in possibilities and probabilities, and some of is set and cannot be changed in knowledge.

The Jinn I believe can temporarily estimate states of the future, but they can never know fully, and they been trying to get accurate, but they will continue only be disappointed as long as they don't submit to the Master appointed to represent God, who is revealed things in summary and then the plan in details as things go a long, and with God establishes and erases what he pleases. 

However if the future is set in stone type future, then that future cannot be changed right, and that is where free-will is impossible.

Do you believe your God exists inside time, or outside it?

Outside and beyond it but has a relationship to it, after all he creates present moment. The present exists, but God is not limited to the present. This however doesn't mean because he is beyond time, that the past exists, and the future exists, all at the same time.

(April 22, 2018 at 10:55 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What choice?  Can you choose b if a is an inevitably certainty? Is this a free choice? In what sense?

The only way it can be an inevitable certainty is if the one with the knowledge someone directly influences the flow of events. It's not difficult to understand.

That's not the only only way that something could be an inevitable certainty.  It's an inevitable certainty that balls roll downhill.  I don't have to interfere to make that happen.  I don;t even have to know why it happens.

It's an inevitable certainty in that the outcome is a known will-be..not a could be....and not for any interference on the part of the being that possesses the knowledge*.  There is no alternative to the will-be, that is what will happen.  You will choose a, you can't choose b.  

*I keep stressing that it doesn't really matter whether or not anyone knows it, either, if there is a true fact of the future..even if no one has access to it or posesses it...it;s still a true fact.  If that fact is "you will choose a".........aaaand you've already heard the rest. The problem for free will in that belief system isn't actually created by the possesser or anything they've done...but by the thing which is possessed, itself. A true, incorrigible fact of the future.

Now you're just being silly.

(April 22, 2018 at 10:54 pm)Grandizer Wrote: If God knows 100% what I will choose to do in the future, then I will not but choose that which God knows I will choose. If I end up choosing something else instead, then God didn't correctly predict that I would do this. So there goes another major problem for the classical god.

What's your take on what i said?  The idea that time is not linear, and our choice could be viewed as dictating what God knows?

The premise is that God knows what you do before you do it.  But if God is operating outside of time, from that perspective, He'd just be viewing the choice you made without the concepts of 'before' and 'after'. 

You could also maybe think of it as a reverse MWI.  From a perspective outside of time with free will, all the realities exist, and we are destroying them with our choices.  (I haven't thought this one through)

(April 22, 2018 at 10:47 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(April 22, 2018 at 10:46 pm)Hammy Wrote: I can see all your logical mistakes though.

You wish you were that Omni.  

Nah. But if I was, I'd know you couldn't do anything other than what I knew you would do. I'd see what you were going to do next before you did it.