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Oh no not another free will thread.

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Oh no not another free will thread.
Mystic Offline
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#171
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:20 pm
He remembers the past, witnesses the present, and does his best to best shape the future by what he is worthy of.
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Catholic_Lady Offline
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#172
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:27 pm (This post was last modified: April 23, 2018 at 1:27 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(April 23, 2018 at 1:17 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(April 22, 2018 at 11:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I see it as God being able to see past present and future simultaneously and all at once, because He is outside of time. While we can only see the present because we are bound by time. Think of it as God having the ability to see a cube at an angle, seeing 3 faces of it at a glance (3 squares, if you will.) Let's say we are on one of those squares. All we can see is the square we are currently on. The "present" square.

If the past, present, and future can be seen simultaneously by God, then the past, present, and future simultaneously exist, by necessity. Presentism is the idea that only the present moment exists. If presentism is true, then God cannot see the past nor the future as neither of those exists. You can't see something which doesn't exist. You can predict the future, but that's not knowledge. What you are implicitly describing is the B theory of time in which the future in some sense necessarily already exists. Under the B theory of time, free will becomes incoherent as the choices have already essentially been made already at the inception of existence.

Unless I'm missing something here, I dont see how it makes much sense to say the past and present dont exist? Yesterday happened, and unless time itself ceases, tomorrow will happen as well. Obviously they just don't exist in the present moment, if that's what you mean. But if there is a God and if time doesn't apply to such God, then the restriction is irrelevant.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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Mystic Offline
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#173
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:28 pm
I think you contradicted yourself there. The restriction is either there or it's not.
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Catholic_Lady Offline
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#174
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:29 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 1:28 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think you contradicted yourself there. The restriction is either there or it's not.

The restriction is there for us, but not for God. That's what I meant.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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Angrboda Offline
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#175
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:30 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 8:05 am)bennyboy Wrote: But as I see it, it is exactly for this reason that I AM free.  I am a causal chokepoint, and whatever I decide, it turns out that is what I would have decided.  I find this very comforting, and I game it like this: I do whatever I damn well please, because it turns out-- that crazy and spontaneous behavior was always going to be the one I exhibited.

In what qualitative way is the behavior of the system before the chokepoint different from that after the chokepoint. Essentially you are atttributing to yourself an ontologically privileged status when you are in effect just one in a long line of chemical reactions. That's like saying that when hydrogen and oxygen mix, they are somehow ontologically different than before they combined. They aren't. Perhaps as a psychological fact they are, but that's a pointless irrelevancy.
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Mystic Offline
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#176
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:31 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 1:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(April 23, 2018 at 1:28 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think you contradicted yourself there. The restriction is either there or it's not.

The restriction is there for us, but not for God. That's what I meant.

Then we are under illusion only. The past exists as much as today and the future exists just as much. All time moments as if always there and forever will be.

God is eternal, he doesn't begin doesn't end. But time begins, it didn't always do so. And today ceases in every moment. God is constantly creating, the new creation is constantly being created, and he is not creating the past and the future at the same time.

If it did, it doesn't even make sense to say we only experience time today, because our past self is alive per this, and so is the future...so where we at? It's paradoxical even on that level.
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The Grand Nudger Offline
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#177
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:32 pm
That's unfortunate, placing the restriction on god actually could solve the contradiction between the two beliefs.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Mystic Offline
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#178
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:34 pm (This post was last modified: April 23, 2018 at 1:35 pm by Mystic.)
It's impossible to create past, present, and future at the same time, if it was possible, then all he would create was eternal existence without a start, and we would all be his equals, because he doesn't have equals not because he would not want to if he could, but because it's impossible and his greatness encompasses all life to the extent that nothing could have been with him and nothing can be with him, he is beyond all places, time is destroyed before reaching him, and attributes go astray regarding him.
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Catholic_Lady Offline
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#179
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:50 pm
I'm not suggesting that it was created at the same time.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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Angrboda Offline
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#180
RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 1:52 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 1:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not suggesting that it was created at the same time.

If the future has not already been created, in what sense does it exist? I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
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Atheist Forums › Community › Philosophy v
Oh no not another free will thread.

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