(April 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(April 23, 2018 at 2:42 pm)henryp Wrote: Why present-ism rather than the Block universe?  

It seems odd that all space exists at each time.  But not all time exists at each space.  

By a block universe do you mean like what Parmenides described?

Quote:That said, I don't know how picking one over the other could be anything more than a wild guess for me.

Well for me it's simply that anything but presentism seems to lead to logical contradictions. To say that all times exist now is to say that the past and the future are happening now which makes no sense because the future is by definition what isn't happening yet and the past is by definition what isn't happening anymore.

EDIT:

Wikipedia Wrote:According to the growing block universe theory of time (or the growing block view), the past and present exist and the future does not exist. The present is an objective property, to be compared with a moving spotlight.

Oh I don't agree with this at all. The past doesn't exist any more than the future does.

I read an article attributing something else to block universe.  I guess Eternalism is what I'm looking for?

(April 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I will leave this here though, as one last ditch effort to convey my position, in case anyone is interested:

Quote:We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. However, God dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of His not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15). Knowing that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), what is His relationship to time?

In Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple yet profound analogy in describing the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.” The eternity of God is contrasted with the temporality of man. Our lives are but short and frail, but God does not weaken or fail with the passage of time.

In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:8, cautioned his readers not to let this one critical fact escape their notice—that God’s perspective on time is far different from mankind’s (Psalm 102:12, 24-27). The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule. Those who foolishly demand that God operate according to their time frame ignore the fact that He is the “High and Lofty One . . . who lives forever” (Isaiah 57:15). This description of God is far removed from man’s condition: “The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away” (Psalm 90:10).

Again, because of our finite minds, we can only grasp the concept of God’s timeless existence in part. And in so doing, we describe Him as a God without a beginning or end, eternal, infinite, everlasting, etc. Psalm 90:2 declares, “From everlasting to everlasting You are God” (see also Psalm 93:2). He always was and always will be.

So, what is time? To put it simply, time is duration. Our clocks mark change or, more precisely, our timepieces are benchmarks of change that indicate the passage of time. We could say, then, that time is a necessary precondition for change and change is a sufficient condition to establish the passage of time. In other words, whenever there’s change of any kind we know that time has passed. We see this as we go through life, as we age. And we cannot recover the minutes that have passed by.

Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him.

And this brings us to the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is a term used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end. He is outside the realm of time. Eternity is not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it. Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html

I don't think it's possible to describe something outside of time though. Our whole language is temporal. What does it mean to say that something never exists but is still existent? Sounds like a contradiction in terms, probably because our whole language is temporal. To not exist at any time would be to never exist, which would be to not exist.

Maybe something outside of time is possible but 1) I don't think it's describable 2) We don't know what it actually entails 3) there's no reason to believe such a thing exists.

(April 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I will leave this here though, as one last ditch effort to convey my position, in case anyone is interested:

Quote:We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. However, God dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of His not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15). Knowing that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), what is His relationship to time?

In Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple yet profound analogy in describing the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.” The eternity of God is contrasted with the temporality of man. Our lives are but short and frail, but God does not weaken or fail with the passage of time.

In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:8, cautioned his readers not to let this one critical fact escape their notice—that God’s perspective on time is far different from mankind’s (Psalm 102:12, 24-27). The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule. Those who foolishly demand that God operate according to their time frame ignore the fact that He is the “High and Lofty One . . . who lives forever” (Isaiah 57:15). This description of God is far removed from man’s condition: “The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away” (Psalm 90:10).

Again, because of our finite minds, we can only grasp the concept of God’s timeless existence in part. And in so doing, we describe Him as a God without a beginning or end, eternal, infinite, everlasting, etc. Psalm 90:2 declares, “From everlasting to everlasting You are God” (see also Psalm 93:2). He always was and always will be.

So, what is time? To put it simply, time is duration. Our clocks mark change or, more precisely, our timepieces are benchmarks of change that indicate the passage of time. We could say, then, that time is a necessary precondition for change and change is a sufficient condition to establish the passage of time. In other words, whenever there’s change of any kind we know that time has passed. We see this as we go through life, as we age. And we cannot recover the minutes that have passed by.

Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him.

And this brings us to the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is a term used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end. He is outside the realm of time. Eternity is not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it. Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html

That's your last-ditch effort, to copy-paste some crap from a bloody evangelical Christian site on an atheist forum? Why is it so hard for people to admit their position isn't always defensible? No critical thinking atheist here is going to be convinced by this convoluted mess of doctrines, even if we assumed the Christian God and free will for the sake of argument! You don't address difficulties by coming up with more difficulties!

I see pre destiny, up there, of the "before the beginning of time" variety even.......what gives?  Three posts ago we weren't onboard with that.

(April 23, 2018 at 2:58 pm)henryp Wrote:

(April 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm)Hammy Wrote: By a block universe do you mean like what Parmenides described?


Well for me it's simply that anything but presentism seems to lead to logical contradictions. To say that all times exist now is to say that the past and the future are happening now which makes no sense because the future is by definition what isn't happening yet and the past is by definition what isn't happening anymore.

EDIT:

Oh I don't agree with this at all. The past doesn't exist any more than the future does.

I read an article attributing something else to block universe.  I guess Eternalism is what I'm looking for?

What you're looking for is the block theory indeed, which is eternalism. Not to be confused with the growing block theory (where past still exists but future has not yet occurred).

By the way, Hammy is a presentist noumenologically, but scientifically, he seems to agree with the current science of time (as defined in science).

(April 23, 2018 at 2:58 pm)henryp Wrote:

(April 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm)Hammy Wrote: By a block universe do you mean like what Parmenides described?


Well for me it's simply that anything but presentism seems to lead to logical contradictions. To say that all times exist now is to say that the past and the future are happening now which makes no sense because the future is by definition what isn't happening yet and the past is by definition what isn't happening anymore.

EDIT:

Oh I don't agree with this at all. The past doesn't exist any more than the future does.

I read an article attributing something else to block universe.  I guess Eternalism is what I'm looking for?

That's the opposite to presentism and the opposite of what I believe. Eternalism=all times exist equally. Presentism=only the present exists.

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(April 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: [...]In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:8, cautioned his readers not to let this one critical fact escape their notice—that God’s perspective on time is far different from mankind’s (Psalm 102:12, 24-27).

But surely this is compatible with my belief that if there is anything that exists outside of time it's impossible for us to describe it because our language (mankind's language) is temporal?

That's what i mean when I say that saying things like "The time before time" makes no sense. If there is anything outside of time, we can't describe it without contradicting ourselves because we can only think, talk and write temporally because we are temporal beings. Does that make sense?

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(April 23, 2018 at 5:02 pm)Grandizer Wrote: By the way, Hammy is a presentist noumenologically, but scientifically, he seems to agree with the current science of time (as defined in science).

Absolutely correct. It's wonderful when someone characterizes the complexities of my view fairly.

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(April 23, 2018 at 5:02 pm)Grandizer Wrote: What you're looking for is the block theory indeed, which is eternalism. Not to be confused with the growing block theory (where past still exists but future has not yet occurred).

Ah, I'd heard of the 'block theory' but not read up on it. I Googled once and found the wrong one I guess lol.

The idea of the past existing but the future not... just sounds silly to me lol.

If the whole problem with the future's existence is that it hasn't happened yet, then surely there's equal problem with the past because it's no longer there?

Unless these are all science models... in which case it's all fair play as long as those models help them do the science and make sense of the universe we live in as we experience it.

What some people who are such die hard science fans that they think metaphysics is total nonsense seem to miss is... it makes no sense to talk of things beyond our experience that we can know. Obviously literally every single thing we know, ultimately comes down to our experience.

Where's that quote from my other thread... hang on.

Bertrand Russell Wrote:We know nothing about the intrinsic quality of physical events except when these are mental events that we directly experience.

There ya go. That.

(April 23, 2018 at 4:59 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(April 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I will leave this here though, as one last ditch effort to convey my position, in case anyone is interested:


https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html

That's your last-ditch effort, to copy-paste some crap from a bloody evangelical Christian site on an atheist forum? Why is it so hard for people to admit their position isn't always defensible? No critical thinking atheist here is going to be convinced by this convoluted mess of doctrines, even if we assumed the Christian God and free will for the sake of argument! You don't address difficulties by coming up with more difficulties!

ok

(April 23, 2018 at 5:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(April 23, 2018 at 4:59 pm)Grandizer Wrote: That's your last-ditch effort, to copy-paste some crap from a bloody evangelical Christian site on an atheist forum? Why is it so hard for people to admit their position isn't always defensible? No critical thinking atheist here is going to be convinced by this convoluted mess of doctrines, even if we assumed the Christian God and free will for the sake of argument! You don't address difficulties by coming up with more difficulties!

ok

I don't think he meant any harm by his tone. I don't think he knows you too well or knows what a nice person you are.

I mean, I'm pretty sure I've spoken to you that way before too but I get the feeling you don't think much of it because it's me and you know I mean no harm by it, hehe.

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
~ Ludwig Wittgenstein