(May 16, 2018 at 7:42 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 7:39 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Haven't you read it? I have. Genesis makes it very clear.

Do you need chapter and verse? Because if I must provide those, and I can, it will make it very clear that you have not read it.

I've read the entire Bible cover to cover.  I've read Genesis multiple times and studied it.  Not sure what you are talking about but I provided verses of God's power in the Scriptures.

Start with omnipresence.
Gen 3:8-10
god plays a celestial game of hide and seek with Adam.

Next omniscience
Gen 3:9
God loses the game of celestial hide and seek by being unable to find Adam.
Gen 3:11
God has no clue that...
A. Adam ate the fruit
B. Eve gave it to him
C. The serpent told her to do so.
Adam has to tell him.

Next, omnipotence
Gen 3:2
god stupidly puts the trees (there are two) in the centre of the garden. He could have put them anywhere else.
god is unable to keep the serpent out of the garden.
god is unable to prevent the serpent talking to eve.
god is unable to prevent Adam and Eve eating the fruit.

Gen 3:22-23
god shits himself in fear lest Adam eat from the second tree and become his equal

And finally...

(May 16, 2018 at 7:42 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 7:40 am)Mathilda Wrote: Why did your god place an apple in a garden that when eaten would redesign people to decay over time and die?

And why not mention to Adam and Eve that the apple was toxic?

He gave them free will to obey Him or not.  They chose not to.  He told them if they ate of it, they would surely die.

How would Adam and Eve know it was wrong until AFTER they ate the fruit? Is your god really that dumb?

All of this crap from one chapter of the very first book. There is plenty more where that came from. Wait until we get to slavery (which you tried to dodge), incest, iron chariots and the rest.

(May 16, 2018 at 8:14 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 7:59 am)CDF47 Wrote: It was His will not to force them to love and obey Him.  He gave them that choice.  They fell but He had a plan to redeem them through Jesus Christ; the Lord.

OK to summarise, your god designed everything, including perfect immortal humans to love and obey him. But he decided that he wanted them to love him out of their own free will and not because they were forced to (sounds like an abusive relationship)

So Adam and Eve were somehow designed to have free will and make their own decisions. But to achieve that he needed to put something in their environment that he could forbid them from doing. This was an apple that would redesign Adam and Eve to decay over time and to die. But if they did that then many thousands of years later their descendents (but not all) would be able to be redeemed by Jesus Christ.

I have to say that if your god wrote this up as a scientific paper that I was reviewing that I'd have to reject it on the grounds that the outcome was inevitable.

Given the freedom to perform a range of actions then the probability of performing all of them  tends towards 1 over time.

He gave them free will to love and obey Him.  That is not an abusive relationship.

Correct.

OK.

Not sure what your point is on that.

(May 16, 2018 at 8:23 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave them free will to love and obey Him.  That is not an abusive relationship.

Correct.

OK.

Not sure what your point is on that.

If your god gave free will to Adam and Eve and consequently to all humans, then how come you think that everything in the world is designed by him?

(May 16, 2018 at 8:23 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 8:14 am)Mathilda Wrote: OK to summarise, your god designed everything, including perfect immortal humans to love and obey him. But he decided that he wanted them to love him out of their own free will and not because they were forced to (sounds like an abusive relationship)

So Adam and Eve were somehow designed to have free will and make their own decisions. But to achieve that he needed to put something in their environment that he could forbid them from doing. This was an apple that would redesign Adam and Eve to decay over time and to die. But if they did that then many thousands of years later their descendents (but not all) would be able to be redeemed by Jesus Christ.

I have to say that if your god wrote this up as a scientific paper that I was reviewing that I'd have to reject it on the grounds that the outcome was inevitable.

Given the freedom to perform a range of actions then the probability of performing all of them  tends towards 1 over time.

He gave them free will to love and obey Him.  That is not an abusive relationship.

Correct.

OK.

Not sure what your point is on that.

Nope. Free will means freedom to disobey him, hate him or completely ignore him.

Love and obedience cannot be compelled, that is not free will.

And besides, omniscience obviates free will.

(May 16, 2018 at 8:23 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave them free will to love and obey Him.  That is not an abusive relationship.

Well what would you think of a father who said to his kids, ''I would like you to not touch this delicious fruit i have put here because i value you free will and not touching it would be a sign of your love to me, but if you do touch it I will kill you''

As if that was not bad enough, the father then invites a person in whom he knows hates him and his children, would love to see them die, and knows fully this person is deceptive and evil and would love to manipulate and deceive his children.

Not only is the story so fucking stupid from beginning to end, it is the very essence of abuse, how any rational human could believe this nonsense is beyond me, but believe it they do.

(May 16, 2018 at 8:21 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 7:42 am)CDF47 Wrote: I've read the entire Bible cover to cover.  I've read Genesis multiple times and studied it.  Not sure what you are talking about but I provided verses of God's power in the Scriptures.

Start with omnipresence.
Gen 3:8-10
god plays a celestial game of hide and seek with Adam.

Next omniscience
Gen 3:9
God loses the game of celestial hide and seek by being unable to find Adam.
Gen 3:11
God has no clue that...
A. Adam ate the fruit
B. Eve gave it to him
C. The serpent told her to do so.
Adam has to tell him.

Next, omnipotence
Gen 3:2
god stupidly puts the trees (there are two) in the centre of the garden. He could have put them anywhere else.
god is unable to keep the serpent out of the garden.
god is unable to prevent the serpent talking to eve.
god is unable to prevent Adam and Eve eating the fruit.

Gen 3:22-23
god shits himself in fear lest Adam eat from the second tree and become his equal

And finally...

(May 16, 2018 at 7:42 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave them free will to obey Him or not.  They chose not to.  He told them if they ate of it, they would surely die.

How would Adam and Eve know it was wrong until AFTER they ate the fruit? Is your god really that dumb?

All of this crap from one chapter of the very first book. There is plenty more where that came from. Wait until we get to slavery (which you tried to dodge), incest, iron chariots and the rest.

There is a lot of misinformation here and verses taken out of context.

God always knows where Adam is.  He is talking to Adam in the next verse.  Adam tried to hide from God.

God knows all these things but lets Adam explain them.  This is similar to what an angry parent might do to their child.  They know their child misbehaved but they let them explain.

God is capable of all those things but chose to give Adam and Eve free will to choose to love and obey him.  They chose to disobey.  He allowed the serpent to tempt them.  He could have kept the serpent out of the garden if He chose.  There is only one tree.

This verse is just stating the tree of life is now shut to man.  Man now has the knowledge of good and evil and he is banished from the garden.

God told them they would surely die.  They probably knew what death looked like by witnessing animal death.

---

(May 16, 2018 at 8:28 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 8:23 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave them free will to love and obey Him.  That is not an abusive relationship.

Correct.

OK.

Not sure what your point is on that.

If your god gave free will to Adam and Eve and consequently to all humans, then how come you think that everything in the world is designed by him?

Because the Scriptures say so.

(May 16, 2018 at 8:37 am)CDF47 Wrote: Because the Scriptures say so.

But why do you believe scripture ?

(May 16, 2018 at 8:33 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 8:23 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave them free will to love and obey Him.  That is not an abusive relationship.

Correct.

OK.

Not sure what your point is on that.

Nope. Free will means freedom to disobey him, hate him or completely ignore him.

Love and obedience cannot be compelled, that is not free will.

And besides, omniscience obviates free will.

I agree, free will means they can love him or not and obey him or not.  It is their choice.

I agree, love cannot be compelled.

Knowing everything does not prevent free will.  He offers free will because He chooses not to force His people to love and obey Him or not.

---

(May 16, 2018 at 8:36 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 8:23 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave them free will to love and obey Him.  That is not an abusive relationship.

Well what would you think of a father who said to his kids, ''I would like you to not touch this delicious fruit i have put here because i value you free will and not touching it would be a sign of your love to me, but if you do touch it I will kill you''

As if that was not bad enough, the father then invites a person in whom he knows hates him and his children, would love to see them die, and knows fully this person is deceptive and evil and would love to manipulate and deceive his children.

Not only is the story so fucking stupid from beginning to end, it is the very essence of abuse, how any rational human could believe this nonsense is beyond me, but believe it they do.

It's the father's will.  Besides they had an entire garden of apples to eat from.  There was just one they couldn't eat from.  Scripture does not indicate it was any better than the rest.

He allows Him in based on His will to see if man would choose Him or not.  This may also have to do with the war in heaven and seeing which side man chooses.  There are no fence sitters.  You either choose God or not.

(May 16, 2018 at 8:41 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 8:33 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Nope. Free will means freedom to disobey him, hate him or completely ignore him.

Love and obedience cannot be compelled, that is not free will.

And besides, omniscience obviates free will.

I agree, free will means they can love him or not and obey him or not.  It is their choice.

I agree, love cannot be compelled.

Knowing everything does not prevent free will.  He offers free will because He chooses not to force His people to love and obey Him or not.

---

(May 16, 2018 at 8:36 am)possibletarian Wrote: Well what would you think of a father who said to his kids, ''I would like you to not touch this delicious fruit i have put here because i value you free will and not touching it would be a sign of your love to me, but if you do touch it I will kill you''

As if that was not bad enough, the father then invites a person in whom he knows hates him and his children, would love to see them die, and knows fully this person is deceptive and evil and would love to manipulate and deceive his children.

Not only is the story so fucking stupid from beginning to end, it is the very essence of abuse, how any rational human could believe this nonsense is beyond me, but believe it they do.

It's the father's will.  Besides they had an entire garden of apples to eat from.  There was just one they couldn't eat from.  Scripture does not indicate it was any better than the rest.

He allows Him in based on His will to see if man would choose Him or not.  This may also have to do with the war in heaven and seeing which side man chooses.  There are no fence sitters.  You either choose God or not.

That's utter bullshit, why oh why do you believe this nonsense ?

(May 16, 2018 at 8:41 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 8:37 am)CDF47 Wrote: Because the Scriptures say so.

But why do you believe scripture ?

Because it is the inspired Word of God I believe.  I believe through faith and reason.  Science shows that the universe and living systems were designed and created.  From their I turn to theology and all the different religions.  Many of the pagan religions are the same with different characters,  similar to Osiris, Isis, and Horus.  Some religions have no creation story or a weird creation story.  It is the Bible that states in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth which I believe was the beginning of the Big Bang and the second heaven being the creation of our sky.

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(May 16, 2018 at 8:45 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 8:41 am)CDF47 Wrote: I agree, free will means they can love him or not and obey him or not.  It is their choice.

I agree, love cannot be compelled.

Knowing everything does not prevent free will.  He offers free will because He chooses not to force His people to love and obey Him or not.

---

It's the father's will.  Besides they had an entire garden of apples to eat from.  There was just one they couldn't eat from.  Scripture does not indicate it was any better than the rest.

He allows Him in based on His will to see if man would choose Him or not.  This may also have to do with the war in heaven and seeing which side man chooses.  There are no fence sitters.  You either choose God or not.

That's utter bullshit, why oh why do you believe this nonsense ?

See post above.