(May 27, 2018 at 2:10 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't know what to tell you. I am long time friends with a devout family of Muslims (follow all the rules, pray multiple times a day, etc), and they are good and decent people who established their good values from their Muslim faith.

How exactly do they follow all the rules if they're ignoring all the horrible ones?

They are indeed good and decent people and this is precisely because they do NOT establish their values from their Muslim faith. Moderate Islam, like moderate Christianity, is civilized because it is partially secularized. Like the video that I just posted said (you seem to have ignored that one too): If Christians, for example, truly followed the Bible they'd trust Christian exorcism of demons over modern secular medicine.

You seem to have an overly romanticized view of true Islam but I am not surprised because moderate Christians like yourself have to cherry pick the Bible almost as much as moderate Muslims have to cherry pick the Koran. And thank goodness that you do cherry pick it.

Because their particular brand of Islamism isn't based on a literal interpretation of every sentence in the Koran.

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As for the video, I don't watch you tube videos in discussion. It's nothing personal.

(May 27, 2018 at 10:35 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: What is the source of your problems with Islam?

Let's be honest: worldwide there are so many views that make Islam stand back in the queue of strong sentences.

Let's take the Christian Bible: the old testament advocates pedophilia, slavery, and mass murder.
The Jewish Talmud is even more violent, with sentences that include the pouring of molten lead into the mouth of the condemned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Judaism

And execution for grand treason for deserters of the army in secular countries right before 80 years only.

Don't you think that it's quite hypocritical to leave all of that aside, ignore it, and cherry pick the Quran only?
What is the source of your problems with Islam? This is a real question, not sarcastic.

-Is it the brown skin of Arabs?
-Is it the heritage of Arabs?
-Is it xenophobia + Islamophobia?

Because I truly fail to see why the media -and so many biased people- bash Islam for the cultural actions of Middle Eastern people, and ignore in a very rude way the Jewish & Christian insane texts which live up to be worthy of a doctrine for a torture chamber.

Same as all other religions. Once I stopped believing the believers nothing else was persuading me to believe. 

 I do love the Arab culture. To say otherwise would be to insult my Mother and Grandmother. Primarily Arab culture was presented to my generation through wonderful food.

(May 27, 2018 at 2:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Because their particular brand of Islamism isn't based on a literal interpretation of every sentence in the Koran.

But there's such thing as getting an interpretation wrong. And it's like I said, there isn't a genuine metaphorical way to interpret stuff like "Kill all the unbelievers." Making such things non-literal is exactly the same in practice as just ignoring it. Like I said, moderate religion is only more reasonable because it's less religious.

Quote:As for the video, I don't watch you tube videos in discussion. It's nothing personal.

No problem.

(May 27, 2018 at 1:27 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: A lack of women's rights:

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https://atheistforums.org/thread-50968.html
Just for the record; it is discussed in this thread exactly why the above has nothing to do with Islam.
Actually wearing it during the prayer or during Omra and Haj is forbidden.

Quote:No I didn't. You're contemptible for that false accusation that I "hate muslims" when I never once said any such thing. I hate Islam. I dislike all religions, some more than others. But I don't hate any religious people.

The context allows the use of "you have a problem" or "you hate".
But again get over yourself: there is no reason for me to throw a false accusation on you.

Quote:Extremist Islamists attacked the twin towers. That's what I said.

You didn't mention the American role in training and funding these terrorists in the first place; so I was just reminding you so you don't get carried away in your drunkenness. The U.S's military institution and its CIA are a factory of terrorism, so let's not cherry pick the Islamist pawns. It's better to tell the whole story.

Quote:No, you are drunk on Propaganda if you are attempting to argue against the fact that extremist Islamists attacked the twin towers. They were literally Islamic martyrs dying for their belief in Islamic Martyrdom.

Again you misunderstand me. I just said "the Western war machine and terrorism are two faces for the same coin".

Or in Arabia, we have a saying: "two ass cheeks in the same pants".
That's the U.S's foreign policy and Islamic terrorism.

(May 27, 2018 at 2:09 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:24 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: War
Bigotry
Oppression
Civil Unrest
Barbaric Morality

I could go on...

But what about these verses from the Quran, which contradicts the above?

Quote:Sura 60, The Quran:
( 8 )   Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

and

Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
( 55 )   Call upon your Lord in humility and privately; indeed, He does not like transgressors.
( 56 )   And cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. And invoke Him in fear and aspiration. Indeed, the mercy of Allah is near to the doers of good.

Not very encouraging like 60 8 it tells not to make wars with those that don't make wars with you and that Allah likes those that are good. But what is that "good"? The question that needs to be answered to interpret the meaning of the rest of the suras that you pasted that only say "do good" but that good might mean a lot of things, like kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and others. I mean Quran is pretty specific what to do with non Muslims, like:

9 23
O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

8 12
[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

2 191
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers

9 30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

(May 27, 2018 at 2:26 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The context allows the use of "you have a problem" or "you hate".

I never said I hated muslims.

Quote:But again get over yourself: there is no reason for me to throw a false accusation on you.

But you just did. You said I said I hated muslims and I didn't say that once so that's a false accusation.

Quote:You didn't mention the American role in training and funding these terrorists in the first place; so I was just reminding you so you don't get carried away in your drunkenness. The U.S's military institution and its CIA are a factory of terrorism, so let's not cherry pick the Islamist pawns. It's better to tell the whole story.

You said that the U.S. gave political cover. That's conspiracy theory.

You are ignoring the fact that the Islamists were driven by their extremist beliefs.

Quote:Again you misunderstand me. I just said "the Western war machine and terrorism are two faces for the same coin".

Answer the question: Do you believe that the suicide bombers who killed themselves by hijacking an airplane and flying it into the twin towers were extremist Islamists driven by their Islamic belief in Martydom?

(May 27, 2018 at 2:24 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 2:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Because their particular brand of Islamism isn't based on a literal interpretation of every sentence in the Koran.

But there's such thing as getting an interpretation wrong. And it's like I said, there isn't a genuine metaphorical way to interpret stuff like "Kill all the unbelievers." Making such things non-literal is exactly the same in practice as just ignoring it. Like I said, moderate religion is only more reasonable because it's less religious.

But if Islam isn't true, then how can you say there is a "correct" and "incorrect" version of it? If Islam is just a made up thing, then Islam is whatever the particular Muslim person deems it to be.... at least to extent of believing in Allah and believing that Mohammed was a prophet.

Plus, based on what Atlas posted from the Koran, looks like there are at least sections of it that say killing is wrong.

(May 27, 2018 at 2:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 2:24 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: But there's such thing as getting an interpretation wrong. And it's like I said, there isn't a genuine metaphorical way to interpret stuff like "Kill all the unbelievers." Making such things non-literal is exactly the same in practice as just ignoring it. Like I said, moderate religion is only more reasonable because it's less religious.

But if Islam isn't true, then how can you say there is a "correct" and "incorrect" version of it? If Islam is just a made up thing, then Islam is whatever the particular Muslim person deems it to be.... at least to extent of believing in Allah and believing that Mohammed was a prophet.

Plus, based on what Atlas posted from the Koran, looks like there are at least sections of it that say killing is wrong.

Islam is a very human religion.

(May 27, 2018 at 11:50 am)Kit Wrote: I have the same issue with Islam that I have with Christianity; it's unreasonable need to spread a fictional lie merely for population conversion because lack of belief cannot be abided.

It's all about the money. The more converts the more customers for special clothes and tours to the Mecca theme park.

I've learned a lot about Islam in the past few years, and even...sort of...thought about following it, but for me, it comes down to Sharia Law, and some other things that just didn't ''feel right'' to me. When I left Christianity, and started exploring other ideas...I was naturally drawn back to the Abrahamic faiths, because that's all I knew. But, now, I'm spiritual, believe in God, without all the bells and whistles of religion. I feel free, in a way, that I didn't feel when following religion. Islam just seems to have the same restrictive nature as does Christianity, in my opinion.

Having said that, learning that I'm part middle eastern last year, (my dad never told me until last year), definitely makes me wonder who on my paternal grandfather's side was Muslim, I'd imagine there's a heritage there of Muslims that I'll never know anything about, which intrigues me.