I don't wish to join any religion. But most of the time I don't think of Islam too much. If I ran in into a US Muslim, chances are good they wouldn't be too extreme of a fundamentalist. It's super rural here. If we have Muslims I doubt they broadcast it any more than I would broadcast being an Atheist.

From what I've seen of Atlass, I doubt he would be for women needing guardians to go outside or to not be able to drive. Or the executions of gays, bisexuals, and Atheists.

Now the fact that in these countries this stuff is often uniform, is terrible.

Rgr that, the deeply "islamic" bits are fucking useless.  The human bits otoh, pretty nice.  I note that I fit in really well in islamic culture....so long as the islam is left out. Deeply islamic people noticed that I was just like the son they wanted their kids to grow up to be. I just didn;t believe in djinn. The djinn believers, otoh..in spite of that...kept trying to kill me, lol.

-and kept failing, because they;re failures, lol. They spent too much time thinking about allah, not enough time coming up with ways to kill me.

(May 27, 2018 at 3:28 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I've learned a lot about Islam in the past few years, and even...sort of...thought about following it, but for me, it comes down to Sharia Law, and some other things that just didn't ''feel right'' to me. When I left Christianity, and started exploring other ideas...I was naturally drawn back to the Abrahamic faiths, because that's all I knew. But, now, I'm spiritual, believe in God, without all the bells and whistles of religion. I feel free, in a way, that I didn't feel when following religion. Islam just seems to have the same restrictive nature as does Christianity, in my opinion.

Having said that, learning that I'm part middle eastern last year, (my dad never told me until last year), definitely makes me wonder who on my paternal grandfather's side was Muslim, I'd imagine there's a heritage there of Muslims that I'll never know anything about, which intrigues me.

Do you know the surname of your Syrian relatives?

It's religion.

(May 27, 2018 at 2:30 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 2:09 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: But what about these verses from the Quran, which contradicts the above?



and

Not very encouraging like 60 8 it tells not to make wars with those that don't make wars with you and that Allah likes those that are good. But what is that "good"?

It was mentioned in the verse what it means to be good towards those who don't fight you:

Quote:Sura 60, The Quran:

( 8 )   Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

The bald part cannot be clearer, I mean it defines itself; really. Literally the verse is saying: "if somebody doesn't expel you from your home, or doesn't fight you because of your religion, then act "righteously" and "justly" towards them, because God loves those who act justly, and doing what God loves is what a Muslim should do".

If you want definition for a word already defined million times until it became a "linguistic" value used in speech, then I apologize but I have nothing to say.

Quote:The question that needs to be answered to interpret the meaning of the rest of the suras that you pasted that only say "do good" but that good might mean a lot of things, like kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and others. I mean Quran is pretty specific what to do with non Muslims, like:

Doing good is doing good. Doing good =/= killing. Again; it is defining itself. If somebody tells you "do good", in a serious manor, and you go butcher a whole town, then I will seriously re-think your mental stability.

Quote:9 23
O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

Yes. That's true. Taking non-believers as allies is a disaster, they rarely take Muslims seriously, and frankly they use the weaknesses of Islamic populations in a very obvious ways. If you want historical examples I can list them to you; but the last of them was what the British Empire did to its Muslim allies after WW1, which led to the nightmare of Israel.

The examples are many. Trump and his raids on Arab oil money is another. Taking non-believers as allies ends up with a knife in the back and a nuclear missile aimed to your head, and evil dictators from your own kin taking support from non-believers to shoot you down and rob your cash.

The examples are also many: Assad attacks Muslim children with chemo but get Russia to cover for him, the Sauds butchering their people but get American support -and their crown prince gets to meet the queen of England-, and so on.

Quote:8 12
[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

I love that verse.
It was revealed to Mohammed because of a battle with the heathens. But allow me to quote the whole context:

Quote:Sura 8, The Quran:
( 1 )   They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the bounties [of war]. Say, "The [decision concerning] bounties is for Allah and the Messenger." So fear Allah and amend that which is between you and obey Allah and His Messenger, if you should be believers.
( 2 )   The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, their hearts become fearful, and when His verses are recited to them, it increases them in faith; and upon their Lord they rely -
( 3 )   The ones who establish prayer, and from what We have provided them, they spend.
( 4 )   Those are the believers, truly. For them are degrees [of high position] with their Lord and forgiveness and noble provision.
( 5 )   [It is] just as when your Lord brought you out of your home [for the battle of Badr] in truth, while indeed, a party among the believers were unwilling,
( 6 )   Arguing with you concerning the truth after it had become clear, as if they were being driven toward death while they were looking on.
( 7 )   [Remember, O believers], when Allah promised you one of the two groups - that it would be yours - and you wished that the unarmed one would be yours. But Allah intended to establish the truth by His words and to eliminate the disbelievers
( 8 )   That He should establish the truth and abolish falsehood, even if the criminals disliked it.
( 9 )   [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."
( 10 )   And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
( 11 )   [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.
( 12 )   [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."
( 13 )   That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
( 14 )   "That [is yours], so taste it." And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.
( 15 )   O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].
( 16 )   And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.
( 17 )   And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
( 18 )   That [is so], and [also] that Allah will weaken the plot of the disbelievers.
( 19 )   If you [disbelievers] seek the victory - the defeat has come to you. And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers.

So it was a battle. And God was telling the believers -and Mohammed- to deliver a good fight, but if the disbelievers at Mecca stop, then Muslims should also stop. It is mentioned explicitly in verse 19 of the same Sura; but the cherry picking chooses one verse from the middle.

Quote:2 191

And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers

The above Sura -which I quoted- says a lot about why Muslims were ordered to "fight those who fight them already".
BTW the using M4 Carbine or AK-47 or maybe a drone is the same thing -or maybe even worse- that is mentioned in the verse above.

Quote:9 30

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

Yes. God is furious with Jews. Even Jews themselves say that; didn't he cast them into the exile??

Wow, what long walls of text.  
I have the same problem with Islam that I have with any other religion - the idea that deities exist and the use of religion to brainwash and control others.

(May 27, 2018 at 3:28 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I've learned a lot about Islam in the past few years, and even...sort of...thought about following it, but for me, it comes down to Sharia Law, and some other things that just didn't ''feel right'' to me. When I left Christianity, and started exploring other ideas...I was naturally drawn back to the Abrahamic faiths, because that's all I knew. But, now, I'm spiritual, believe in God, without all the bells and whistles of religion. I feel free, in a way, that I didn't feel when following religion. Islam just seems to have the same restrictive nature as does Christianity, in my opinion.

Having said that, learning that I'm part middle eastern last year, (my dad never told me until last year), definitely makes me wonder who on my paternal grandfather's side was Muslim, I'd imagine there's a heritage there of Muslims that I'll never know anything about, which intrigues me.

You have two main sources that Muslims use to draw the religion:
1-The Quran
2- The Hadith books

The Quran is believed to be the word of God that was written when Prophet Mohammed was alive, while the Hadiths are written about 250 after the death of the prophet. They are documents of rumors about his era.

Sharia law is derived from the Hadith. Lots of negative laws exist only in the Hadith (like stoning and killing homosexuals).
Eliminate the Hadith; and the religion becomes very different from the negative picture sharia law presents.

I'm just not into worship, and feeling an obligation to pray five times a day would stress me out.  When I belonged to a Buddhist group back in my 30s, it was recommended that we chant twice a day.  After a while it just turned into a mechanical, emotionless exercise being done solely for the sake of getting in the requisite two sessions, and I finally quit the group and dropped the practice altogether.

(May 27, 2018 at 4:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well then aren't you "cherry picking" too if you just take the "bad" parts of the Koran and ignore the good? If certain things arent extremely straight forward due to apparent contradictions, then obviously there is room for interpretation when deciphering the entirety of the message in the Koran. I dont think its fair to tell a Muslim person that they are not "true Muslims" because their interpretation is different than yours.

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Matthew 7:15-20

(May 27, 2018 at 9:26 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 3:28 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I've learned a lot about Islam in the past few years, and even...sort of...thought about following it, but for me, it comes down to Sharia Law, and some other things that just didn't ''feel right'' to me. When I left Christianity, and started exploring other ideas...I was naturally drawn back to the Abrahamic faiths, because that's all I knew. But, now, I'm spiritual, believe in God, without all the bells and whistles of religion. I feel free, in a way, that I didn't feel when following religion. Islam just seems to have the same restrictive nature as does Christianity, in my opinion.

Having said that, learning that I'm part middle eastern last year, (my dad never told me until last year), definitely makes me wonder who on my paternal grandfather's side was Muslim, I'd imagine there's a heritage there of Muslims that I'll never know anything about, which intrigues me.

You have two main sources that Muslims use to draw the religion:
1-The Quran
2- The Hadith books

The Quran is believed to be the word of God that was written when Prophet Mohammed was alive, while the Hadiths are written about 250 after the death of the prophet. They are documents of rumors about his era.

Sharia law is derived from the Hadith. Lots of negative laws exist only in the Hadith (like stoning and killing homosexuals).
Eliminate the Hadith; and the religion becomes very different from the negative picture sharia law presents.

You partially answered your own OP question. Why don't you go fix the >90% of 1.6 billion Muslims who accept & adhere to the hadiths. You can start with AL-Azhar and Medina University folks. In my place, if anyone publicly quote this or criticise   the hadiths will be arrested on charges of blasphemy/sedition etc.

As for phobias you accused earlier, now lets look at your Al-Fatihah prayer which you & 1.6 billion Musllims utter 5 time a day during salat.

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
Guide us to the Straight Way
The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (the Jews), nor of those who went astray (the Christians) (Quran 1:1-7)

Muslims can't even pray without dissing the infidel!!? and you talk about phobias?

And another beautiful verse;

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures (Quran 98 6)

Now try swapping the words;

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the Muslims will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. They are the worst of creatures (Quran 98 6)

Sounds good to you?