OP: That it exists as a creation of man (the same as any other religion). That some of the believers are using it to manipulate other believers to commit racism, violence and atrocities against other believers and nonbelievers alike. And that the religion itself can be used to falsely justify these actions. 

Maybe this was stated earlier, read very few of the other responses.

(May 27, 2018 at 1:38 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:37 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: Why is it that people who start with "not to be racist" always say something racist afterwards?

He was kidding.

Well I just died laughing.

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:39 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:12 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: Same here but some religions are definitely worse than others.

I have one issue with all of them: They're all untrue.

But, extremist Jainism, for instance, is hardly on par with extremist Islam or Extremist Christianity. Some religions definitely cause more harm and do more damage than others.

I don't think all religions are the same; it's innate capacity that there are huge differences in the sentences of each religion, and the demands it asks from its followers.

That's what I said.

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:54 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: 1-Carbon-Copies with no personality
2-Evil douches with a personality of their own
3-Good people with a personality of their own

We swing between the three.

You definitely swing between 1 and 3.

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(May 27, 2018 at 2:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But if Islam isn't true, then how can you say there is a "correct" and "incorrect" version of it?

Something doesn't have to be true for there to be a more plausible interpretation of what was written. The same applies to works of fiction. There's very much a wrong way to read Brave New World if your takeaway is that it's all a grand metaphor for the health benefits of coconuts or something.

Quote: If Islam is just a made up thing, then Islam is whatever the particular Muslim person deems it to be.... at least to extent of believing in Allah and believing that Mohammed was a prophet.

Once again that begs the question. You're already assuming they're muslims just because they claim to be and follow SOME of their religion (how much do you have to practice to be a muslim? Is it okay to ignore huge amounts of the Koran? Again, even if you can still ignore huge amounts of the Koran and still be a muslim that still isn't a full practice of Islam as you are still ignoring huge amounts of it). I can't read the Koran and then conclude that the message is that a giant carrot named Brutus is God and he all wants us to spend all day every day eating pickled eggs or else we'll have to have our butts scratched for all eternity and seriously claim to be a muslim. As no such thing is said in the Koran.

To be a Muslim you actually have to correctly follow what is written in the Koran. Some of it is vague and open to interpretation but some of it is very very straight forward. To pretend otherwise is just to ignore what is written because it's too horrible to actually put into practice.

Quote:Plus, based on what Atlas posted from the Koran, looks like there are at least sections of it that say killing is wrong.

Exactly my point. He's cherrypicking out the few good parts and ignoring all the horrible parts. My point is that on the whole Islam is very much not a religion of peace it's a religion of conquest and violence and martyrdom... there are a few good parts that say the exact opposite. You know why? Because, like the Bible, it's full of contradictions. The point is that there are huge amounts of bad parts that go ignored.

Well then aren't you "cherry picking" too if you just take the "bad" parts of the Koran and ignore the good? If certain things arent extremely straight forward due to apparent contradictions, then obviously there is room for interpretation when deciphering the entirety of the message in the Koran. I dont think its fair to tell a Muslim person that they are not "true Muslims" because their interpretation is different than yours.

(May 27, 2018 at 1:36 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: Islam hasn't done the most damage throughout history. Christianity has. But Islam definitely does the most damage today.

"Most Damage"?
"Most"??

Do you see why I ignore your posts?

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:36 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Not to be racist but it's definitely the brown skin of the Arabs I have a problem with.

That and I don't actually believe in god to begin with so Islam meaning submission to god, is something I'd obviously object to on the basis of submitting to a thing I don't have a reason to believe exists.

We also submit to nature forcefully, we obey the natural laws without even choosing to.

(May 27, 2018 at 1:35 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 12:57 pm)unsapien Wrote: But for today, right now, globally, they're doing the most damage to our species.

"most damage"?

I think that is very unfair. World War 2 -which claimed the life of almost 1000000 people- did not witness a single Muslim frontier; the hairy situation humanity is in now is because of the west and china, and their insane industrial cycle, atomic bombs are the real threat, and they are the specialty of non-Muslims.

WW2 claimed more than 1,000,000 people, try 12,000,000+, of all "types of people".

Northern Africa & the middle east were NOT on the muslim frontier during WW2!? I'd almost pay to see one of your history books from your school to see what you've been reading.

I almost agree with you on the text I didn't bold, almost...razor thin. 

(May 27, 2018 at 1:41 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 10:35 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: What is the source of your problems with Islam?

Let's be honest: worldwide there are so many views that make Islam stand back in the queue of strong sentences.

Let's take the Christian Bible: the old testament advocates pedophilia, slavery, and mass murder.
The Jewish Talmud is even more violent, with sentences that include the pouring of molten lead into the mouth of the condemned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Judaism

And execution for grand treason for deserters of the army in secular countries right before 80 years only.

Don't you think that it's quite hypocritical to leave all of that aside, ignore it, and cherry pick the Quran only?
What is the source of your problems with Islam? This is a real question, not sarcastic.

-Is it the brown skin of Arabs?
-Is it the heritage of Arabs?
-Is it xenophobia + Islamophobia?

Because I truly fail to see why the media -and so many biased people- bash Islam for the cultural actions of Middle Eastern people, and ignore in a very rude way the Jewish & Christian insane texts which live up to be worthy of a doctrine for a torture chamber.

God-concepts and the books about god-concepts that advocate killing anybody who doesn't share in the delusion.

That's a misconception enforced by the actions of extremists.

The Quran on the contrary, orders the believers in God not to do so:

Quote:Sura 25, The Quran:
( 68 )   And those who do not invoke with Allah another deity or kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty.
( 69 )   Multiplied for him is the punishment on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein humiliated -

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:44 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: You come to an atheist forum .And ask what are issue is with a religion .

Yes. I have a message and atheists deserve to hear it: Islam is not what ISIS says it is; it's bigger than that. So you find me here.

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:45 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:39 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I don't think all religions are the same; it's innate capacity that there are huge differences in the sentences of each religion, and the demands it asks from its followers.

All the differences pale in significance next to their fundamentally identical goal of subordinating the intelligence and judgement of men to the interest of a class of parasites who thrive by making shit up and shoveling shit over the heads of humanity.

I won't generalize like that: the religious institution -just like any "human" institution-, use religion.
But there are good individuals outside the institution who have their own independent morals and opinions, in Christianity, in Judaism, everywhere.

The Quran mentions this:

Quote:Sura 3, The Quran:
( 113 )   They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].
( 114 )   They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.
( 115 )   And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.

So which group are you speaking about? from your comment; you're generalizing on all religious people to be robots.

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:44 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: Sam Harris did a great bit on this false idea that interpretations for such books are as so wide open:





It's hilarious when people think that it's a reasonable interpretation of a book from the dark ages to insist that lines like "Kill the unbelievers" are metaphors. It's beyond cherry-picking it's full-blown mental gymnastics. Some parts are very, very, very, very clearly literal.


That begs the question as they aren't actually a devout Muslim if they're not actually following their religion. This is the whole point. The extremists are the devout muslims.

Sure, maybe a partial Muslim if they're only following the bits they like. The bits that aren't violent towards nonbelievers and bigoted towards women, for example. So they're ignoring huge parts of their religion, basically.

People are free to interpret their holy book however they see fit, and to follow a faith based on that interpretation. If it is a faith that teaches love and morality, why should I have a problem with it?

Paying the favor back is one noble thing. I agree with you.

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:48 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: The same problems I have with fundamentalust Christianity or Judaism.: it convinces some of its followers that those who don't hold the same beliefs are inferior and don't have the same rights or even deserve to live.

It create s hate and fanaticism in the minds of its adherents and holds back scientific and social progress.  And, in many ways, it treats women as inferior.

In my opinion, there are two perspectives:

-God's perspective
-The person's perspective

Yes; God's opinion is that a non-believer would go to hell. The human -the person- should never ever impersonate God; a non-believer deserves hell, but who said I'm counted as a believer in the first place? I'm "trying" to be a believer, I'm trying to hold the faith with everything I got, but I didn't see my place in paradise yet. I can go to hell in any moment. Only God judges people to be in heaven or hell.

Personally I think that forgetting that is the moment a believer turns into an extremist. If you think you are saved, then you'll do all wrongs in the world.

All of us are banished from heaven and here to prove ourselves before judgement day. We all deserve an equal chance, men or women.

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:39 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I don't think all religions are the same; it's innate capacity that there are huge differences in the sentences of each religion, and the demands it asks from its followers.

Yeah, I agree with this. Saying all religious beliefs are the same is like saying all sets of values are the same. Or all sets of rules are the same. It makes no sense.

Exactly, there's a huge difference for example between Abrahamic religions and Heathen religions, even their categories differ by a wide scale

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(May 27, 2018 at 1:50 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 1:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: People are free to interpret their holy book however they see fit, and to follow a faith based on that interpretation.

That's like claiming that someone who says 2+2=5 is free to claim to be a good mathematician.

The point is they are not following their religion completely if they ignore huge percentages of it.

Here's another video as you didn't address the last one:

Quote:If it is a faith that teaches love and morality, why should I have a problem with it?

The point is that it teaches very little love and morality and an awful lot of hate, violence and bigotry and they only avoid that by ignoring it.

They AREN'T following the religion fully unless they truly believe the horrible parts as well. That's my point. The extremist Muslims are the devout ones.

I'm following the religion fully, as much as I can, except things like fasting and constant prayer because of my MS. Even with non-believers I try to apply the Quran as much as I can. I mean read the verse; does it say "slaughter the infedel" ??

Quote:Sura 60, The Quran:
( 8 )   Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
( 9 )   Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

This is my religion ! literally don't fight me, and I'll be nice to you. But bully me, or attack me, and I'll kick your ass ! as simple as that.
I think the extremists are the ones who are reading another book, or interpreting the above -as CL said- according to their own opinion.

In both cases; I have eyes and I can read. I will not hurt somebody that didn't hurt me, and the extremist Muslims who sold their souls to anger are wrong.

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(May 27, 2018 at 2:01 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: My problem with Islam is that is backward, totalitarian, patriarchal, like this for instance that's happening as I write this:

Egyptian Court Blocks Youtube for a Month Due to Controversial Muhammad Video

Wait wait wait..
That's Sisi's Egypt:



This piece of shit is the president of Egypt, he's an army general  -was- and the cause of what Humans Rights Watch described as "one of the world's largest killings of demonstrators in a single day in recent history":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_201...a_massacre

The massacre was against "Islamists" from the "Muslim Brotherhood". This guy is no Muslim; and his court is not even close to Islam.

(May 27, 2018 at 2:15 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 10:35 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: What is the source of your problems with Islam?

Let's be honest: worldwide there are so many views that make Islam stand back in the queue of strong sentences.

Let's take the Christian Bible: the old testament advocates pedophilia, slavery, and mass murder.
The Jewish Talmud is even more violent, with sentences that include the pouring of molten lead into the mouth of the condemned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Judaism

And execution for grand treason for deserters of the army in secular countries right before 80 years only.

Don't you think that it's quite hypocritical to leave all of that aside, ignore it, and cherry pick the Quran only?
What is the source of your problems with Islam? This is a real question, not sarcastic.

-Is it the brown skin of Arabs?
-Is it the heritage of Arabs?
-Is it xenophobia + Islamophobia?

Because I truly fail to see why the media -and so many biased people- bash Islam for the cultural actions of Middle Eastern people, and ignore in a very rude way the Jewish & Christian insane texts which live up to be worthy of a doctrine for a torture chamber.

Same as all other religions. Once I stopped believing the believers nothing else was persuading me to believe. 

 I do love the Arab culture. To say otherwise would be to insult my Mother and Grandmother. Primarily Arab culture was presented to my generation through wonderful food.

You're awesome, chimp   here's a basboosa with almonds; and a cup of Arabic coffee

You.  You;re my problem with islam, Atlass.  I see you, and I immediately know that it isn;t for me.

(May 27, 2018 at 5:28 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(May 27, 2018 at 2:15 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Same as all other religions. Once I stopped believing the believers nothing else was persuading me to believe. 

 I do love the Arab culture. To say otherwise would be to insult my Mother and Grandmother. Primarily Arab culture was presented to my generation through wonderful food.

You're awesome, chimp   here's a basboosa with almonds; and a cup of Arabic coffee

And a pistachio baklawa for you!

Arab culture, sans islam...would be an improvement.  Islam isn;t a requirement for the tasty food. No more than vile christerism is a requirement for southern comfort food. Gumbo has no dependency on the divine sanction of institutional racism, for example.

Imma cook gold cost shrimp on the grill here, in a few minutes, without any gold coast evangelism.