(June 1, 2018 at 7:59 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(May 31, 2018 at 10:15 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: One is saying Allah forgives all sins, the other describes what sin Allah won't forgive. But you do you.

One is mentioning the case generally, the other makes an exception. That's very legal and common in any book.

Gotcha, all doesn't mean all in the Quran. Whenever the Quran says 'all', we should assume that means 'with exceptions'.

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(June 1, 2018 at 8:04 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It's two angles, one is from the perspective of sins that are not repented for.

The other is from the perspective of redemption being possible for all sins, if God is turned to sincerely.

The verse that is about what Allah doesn't forgive is going away from Islam and coming back again, that is exactly turning to Allah sincerely. Lesson: if you ever stray from Islam, no point in trying to go back, you won't be forgiven. I think that means you're cooked, MK.

Mister Agenda I would not rely on translations of those sites with an Agenda if I were you

Here is the verse you are talking about:

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?...&verse=137

You left out "then increase in disbelief", I thought it was a typo on your part, so didn't think anything of it. Thought you were aware of the proper translations.

(June 2, 2018 at 2:55 am)paulpablo Wrote:

(June 1, 2018 at 7:59 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: One is mentioning the case generally, the other makes an exception. That's very legal and common in any book.

Everything you've posted on here makes perfect sense.  What you just posted on here makes no sense.

It seems to me that either Muslims bend over backwards to believe there's no contradictions or Arabic is a language where there can be no contradictions whatever you say.

You're right that it's common to make a case generally and make an exception but it still is a contradiction.  It's just a common contradiction that people do because we're just imperfect people.

Someone might say "All the cats are white but this cat is black."  The person saying that might not be corrected because we know what he's talking about, but all the cat's can't be white if one of them is black.  It's still a contradiction. 

Do you have an example of this kind of language being used in any law or legal document?

Nobody claimed that Arabic is immune to contradiction. It's a normal language that can mean ramblings or logical meanings.
As an official place that "gives an exception" to a general rule; the examples are too many that I don't know which to choose:

Quote:exception
ɪkˈsɛpʃ(ə)n,ɛkˈsɛpʃ(ə)n/
noun
plural noun: exceptions
a person or thing that is excluded from a general statement or does not follow a rule.

One verse contained "the general statement".
The other contained "the exception".

You are expected to read the whole Quran, with the contexts it gives; a belief cannot stand without taking the whole book into consideration. In other words; you cannot say that God "forgives all sins" without saying "except associating others with him". It has nothing to do with Arabic.

Cherry picking is not allowed with the Quran; it's a whole book.

Angled statements are part of language.

For example Quran says "You did not throw when you threw but God threw"

"You did not throw" contradicts "you threw" but somehow it comes together "but God threw".

Language is meant to convey.

Another example is that Quran clarifies what is meant by "disbelief" is towards "signs/proofs of God", and we have two meanings to that:

Signs and proofs are presented outwardly but the person doesn't accept.

Signs and proofs have reached the depth of their souls but they refuse and have become stubborn.

Quran clarifies itself and shows the latter is what is meant.

So therefore you can call all non-Muslims disbelievers, but that is not the context of Quran use of the word.

As for the people of Mecca fighting the believers, yes Messenger generally labelled them with that title, but keep in mind these people saw miracles and also had deep knowledge of Quran because Prophet was there to explain it.

It's the same when declaring the people there who believed in trinity, being disbelievers, it's because they knew the truth and the clear proof had come to them.

And in fact, you can't be disbeliever without access to the proof.

There is of course ASIDE From disbelievers, people who are unjust to themselves, by not searching the truth. If people have access to the truth but don't make effort, they will not be excused.

It's only those with access to the proofs, that will be excused because they had no way.

That said, I don't know myself know the way to present the proof of Quran as presented by Messenger during his time....

I believe just as people were excused for not understanding the Torah in that time, and it was no longer proof because of the difficulty in reaching understanding and all the false interpretations out there and falsehood mixed with it.

The same is true of Islam. It's no longer strong affair and no longer a clear manifest proof.

The truth is hidden in this day and age, and majority are excused for not believing, including Muslims for being misguided.

(June 2, 2018 at 7:46 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 1, 2018 at 7:59 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: One is mentioning the case generally, the other makes an exception. That's very legal and common in any book.

Gotcha, all doesn't mean all in the Quran. Whenever the Quran says 'all', we should assume that means 'with exceptions'.

But the verse makes a distinct exception:

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
(116) Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.

The word "but" is used for the exception:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/but

(June 2, 2018 at 12:29 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 2, 2018 at 2:55 am)paulpablo Wrote: Everything you've posted on here makes perfect sense.  What you just posted on here makes no sense.

It seems to me that either Muslims bend over backwards to believe there's no contradictions or Arabic is a language where there can be no contradictions whatever you say.

You're right that it's common to make a case generally and make an exception but it still is a contradiction.  It's just a common contradiction that people do because we're just imperfect people.

Someone might say "All the cats are white but this cat is black."  The person saying that might not be corrected because we know what he's talking about, but all the cat's can't be white if one of them is black.  It's still a contradiction. 

Do you have an example of this kind of language being used in any law or legal document?

Nobody claimed that Arabic is immune to contradiction. It's a normal language that can mean ramblings or logical meanings.
As an official place that "gives an exception" to a general rule; the examples are too many that I don't know which to choose:

Quote:exception
ɪkˈsɛpʃ(ə)n,ɛkˈsɛpʃ(ə)n/
noun
plural noun: exceptions
a person or thing that is excluded from a general statement or does not follow a rule.

One verse contained "the general statement".
The other contained "the exception".

You are expected to read the whole Quran, with the contexts it gives; a belief cannot stand without taking the whole book into consideration. In other words; you cannot say that God "forgives all sins" without saying "except associating others with him". It has nothing to do with Arabic.

Cherry picking is not allowed with the Quran; it's a whole book.

That's why it's a contradiction.  The general statement contains the word "All."



synonyms:
completely, fully, entirely, totally, wholly, absolutely, utterly, outright, thoroughly, altogether, quite, in every respect, in all respects, without reservation, without exception
"he was dressed all in black"




God can't forgive sins without exceptions with exceptions.  

If you know the way English works and synonyms then you'd 100% understand this and this isn't to insult you because I know you don't speak English as a first language so you'll just have to trust me that it is a contradiction in English to say "All sins are forgiven"  And then to say "This one sin isn't forgiven."  It doesn't matter about which part of the book it's in, or if you're taking the book as a whole or anything like that.

The only time your argument might work in English is if someone said something like "All the pies were tasty except this one."  Then you're immediately clarifying the exception in relation to the word "All" in the same sentence.
So this is either to do with some kind of language barrier or you're purposefully misunderstanding the way exceptions and contradictions work.

The statement forgives all sins in the other verse includes Shirk and is especially about that, saying, you can repent and redeem yourself no matter what sins you have done.

The statement God forgives not shirk and forgives what is below that of what he pleases for who he wants, means, if not repented for Shirk is not forgiven.  And Quran has many type of sins that not forgiven if not repented for meaning they are most likely instances of shirk.

This is so basic.

(June 2, 2018 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The statement forgives all sins in the other verse includes Shirk and is especially about that, saying, you can repent and redeem yourself no matter what sins you have done.

The statement God forgives not shirk and forgives what is below that of what he pleases for who he wants, means, if not repented for Shirk is not forgiven.  And Quran has many type of sins that not forgiven if not repented for meaning they are most likely instances of shirk.

This is so basic.

Actually what is basic is this.  God forgives not shirk means God forgives not shirk.

What is not basic, and due to religious brainwashing, is thinking that the statement god forgives not shirk means god does forgive shirk sometimes because there'd be some problems for Islam if it didn't mean that.

I would study linguistics and norms of language before being hasty.

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And actually a better translation is "God doesn't forgive the association..." and it refers particularly the shirk being done there, because it was with clear proof.

And so many verse shows the condemnation comes with clear proof.

I don't really care what this generation thinks of language, they know nothing of language but what Iblis' forces teach them.

(June 2, 2018 at 1:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I would study linguistics and norms of language before being hasty.

I admit that I don't know Arabic.  This is why I said when it comes to Arabic it could be the case that if god says "I don't forgive shirk"  It means he does sometimes forgives shirk.

It could be the case in Arabic that "All the sins will be forgiven" doesn't contradict "some sins won't be forgiven."

I'm just telling you as an Englishman that in English there's a contradiction there.  And saying "I don't forgive shirk" Means that you don't forgive shirk, not that you sometimes do forgive shirk.  And the word "All" means without exceptions, so you can't make a statement about something and use the word all, then in a separate sentence have an exception.  

You might get away with it being understood in some cases but it would still be imperfect.