Kitty, what Poca is trying to say is that nobody technically has free will as our thoughts are made milliseconds before they appear in our mind.
We are not in control of our subconsciousness.

If I say pick a number between 1 and 10,000, the number you pick will be based on thousands of variables which your powerful brain numbercrunches to spit out a result which seems random to you but is far from random. I don't even think we are capable of true random thought.

(June 14, 2018 at 7:36 am)ignoramus Wrote: Kitty, what Poca is trying to say is that nobody technically has free will as our thoughts are made milliseconds before they appear in our mind.
We are not in control of our subconsciousness.

If I say pick a number between 1 and 10,000, the number you pick will be based on thousands of variables which your powerful brain numbercrunches to spit out a result which seems random to you but is far from random.  I don't even think we are capable of true random thought.

I know what Poca wants to say, our brain specialist  
but I still think that we have free will ... maybe it's limited sometimes, sometimes overrated ... but we still have it ...
Of course, it is to some extent conditioned by our origin, environment, education... but you can always say yes or no ... even if you think you can't act otherwise because your brain tells you that and such and no other choice but you feel that you want choose something else ... then you can do it ... because this election is just a free will, possibility of making choices!
I'm not talking about the randomness of our brain with small decisions ... but about life's thoughtful choices ... it's free will...

Things without free will can also say yes and no.  The issue of whether or not we have free will is not an issue of whether or not we say yes or no, or whether we want things, or can do the things we want, or even if we can choose things. None of those things require free will..and we do all of them regardless of whether or not we have free will...as do many other items and objects which can in no sensible way possess such an attribute.

Free will, at least in my experience in these discussions...is usually a euphemism for peoples ignorance of their own decision-making process.

If we;re willing to describe "free will" as...whatever it is we do....then "free will" means nothing in particular. It;s as free as a conveyor belt, and as willful as a toaster.

This no real "white" in the universe either. White as we experience it is unique to our particular mechanism, in marriage with our ability to experience subjectively. And yet-- with 100% certainty I can tell you that the printer on my desk is white. I'm not sure I'd even say that it is objectively so, even though it is only through experience that "whiteness" comes into existence at all. Nor would I say white is a "euphemism" for multiple frequencies of photon when they combine in our senses.

That an experience doesn't map to materials or material processes doesn't make them "euphemisms." Love doesn't map precisely, nor happiness, nor probably any other subjective experiences. You would say that mind itself is a euphemism for certain kinds of brain function, I think.

It is clear that in our way of looking things, there is an interaction between brain function and mental experience. But your view that there are physical layers upon which the mind supervenes is kind of like insisting that one way of the globe is up rather than the other: it's not arrived at by discovery but by definition.

Oh god..here we go again.  White has the benefit of referring to something demonstrable which does exist in the universe.  The trouble with free will..is that it doesn;t exist in the same way that white exists. So, even if you were deadset on taking this diversion and running with it..it wouldn;t rescue free will as a concept.

I don;t consider mind a euphemism at all, lol.

(June 14, 2018 at 5:25 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 14, 2018 at 5:03 am)KittyAnn Wrote: Yes, my will is free ... and my choices are free

Free from what?
Free from anyone else?... most likely, yes... within the bounds genetically and socially imposed upon you as a social animal.
Free from biophysics? Somehow, I doubt that...

(June 14, 2018 at 5:03 am)KittyAnn Wrote: Of course, the world is so built that we have certain limitations if we want to live in a civilized society ... but we still have free will and we choose ... we want or not

Yes, we choose... but is our decision truly free in such a way that we could reason differently from what we've done, given the exact same information that we had, the exact same situation, the exact same emotional state, the exact same world?

(June 14, 2018 at 5:03 am)KittyAnn Wrote: I wouldn't want this computer to make a decision for me, although probably based on the algorithms it would be better decisions than I'd have taken ... but it's better to think that it's me, not the machine, right?

It is better to think thus... but is us thinking we choose equivalent to us actually choosing?

(June 14, 2018 at 5:03 am)KittyAnn Wrote: ...and speaking about my choice in the past yes i could do different choice and sometimes i regret it...but i was to weak to do it ..but also it was my decision not machine ...so now it is as it is.. c'est la vie!

Could you really?
Given the same situation, and no knowledge of how things turned out, would you really make a different decision?

He could, but our decision, as I said, depends on our upbringing, environment, surroundings ... so sometimes instead of doing what we want, what we think ... we make a decision that will refer to the surroundings, so we do something against ourselves, against our free will .. Of course, the algorithm of our brain isn't even predictable for us ...and good somehow But we still have a free will ... this is a assumption as in physics ... If we lived in a vacuum, our free will ... it would be really free ...
And I can't imagine that they put a chip into my brain and now the computer tells me what to do, what to think, what to dream (i prefer mine unpredictable brain) or not to mention the fact that the hacker can put a virus into my brain and suddenly i would like to strangle the neighbor... so no thank you.... it is enough that the environment, education and law directs my choices.. But of course, I don't mind if technology can help us in our daily lives, when it can help us make our life easier ... eg when losing a hand or leg it can replace it .. and of course I don't mind if the technology contributes to improving the health of people with Parkinson's, Alzchaimer's or other brain diseases ... I know that implanting certain chips into the brain can stimulate it properly, which makes life easier for such people and sometimes even it can brings them back to live.
So, technology -YES, so long as it doesn't take away our humanity!
Would I make a different decision? ... I think that if the conditions were different, other people, different environment, other upbringing, other circumstances ... certainly yes! Btw.. i was close to made a different decision...

No one needs to put a chip in your brain to accomplish any of that.  Human beings are wildly susceptible to conditioning.  Come to think of it, that might be a good use for such a chip, subverting the pathways of conditioned response.

On another note...do you find that technology and humanity are at odds..such that an increase in one is necessarily a decrease in the other? I find myself thinking precisely the opposite..that our humanity is pretty much defined by our technology. Thats our thing, our niche. We;ve been looking for (and finding) ways to overcome our common mammalian biology since day one...the ultimate expression of what it means to be human may, in the end, be complete transcendence of that frame. We;ve been dreaming about that for at least 50k years..all of our spiritual traditions are based upon that hope..after all.

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: He could, but our decision, as I said, depends on our upbringing, environment, surroundings ... so sometimes instead of doing what we want, what we think ... we make a decision that will refer to the surroundings, so we do something against ourselves, against our free will .. Of course, the algorithm of our brain isn't even predictable for us ...and good somehow But we still have a free will ... this is a assumption as in physics ... If we lived in a vacuum, our free will ... it would be really free ...

I'm starting to think we are referring to different things when we say "free". Free should mean independent of any constraints Our will, our decision making algorithm, like you called it, does seem to have a strong dependence upon those things you mentioned. It also works within our brains that should adhere to standard describable and predictable biophysics, even if our human brains are way too complex for us to monitor one in full to accurately claim that some thought occurred in such and such way.

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: And I can't imagine that they put a chip into my brain and now the computer tells me what to do, what to think, what to dream (i prefer mine unpredictable brain) or not to mention the fact that the hacker can put a virus into my brain and suddenly i would like to strangle the neighbor... so no thank you.... it is enough that the environment, education and law directs my choices..

There you go again... your choices are not truly free, are they?
And I think that, before anyone can make such a chip, we'll have to understand how the brain actually works.
On the other hand, it is remarkably easy to induce certain sensations that then induce certain behaviors...

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: But of course, I don't mind if technology can help us in our daily lives, when it can help us make our life easier ... eg when losing a hand or leg it can replace it .. and of course I don't mind if the technology contributes to improving the health of people with Parkinson's, Alzchaimer's or other brain diseases ... I know that implanting certain chips into the brain can stimulate it properly, which makes life easier for such people and sometimes even it can brings them back to live.
So, technology -YES, so long as it doesn't take away our humanity!

Totally agree.

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: Would I make a different decision? ... I think that if the conditions were different, other people, different environment, other upbringing, other circumstances ... certainly yes! Btw.. i was close to made a different decision...

Of course, if the conditions were different, the decision becomes unknown and possibly different...
But the question claims that everything is the same, your lifetime is the same, everything around you is the same, you are the same. Would your decision be any different?

I guess what I'm saying is that, while we think we make choices, from the pool of available behaviors at any given moment, all our background, mental, memorial, physical, genetic, etc will be what actually drives our decision making process and there is nothing, no mechanism by which can come to a decision that defies that.

(June 15, 2018 at 12:20 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: He could, but our decision, as I said, depends on our upbringing, environment, surroundings ... so sometimes instead of doing what we want, what we think ... we make a decision that will refer to the surroundings, so we do something against ourselves, against our free will .. Of course, the algorithm of our brain isn't even predictable for us ...and good somehow But we still have a free will ... this is a assumption as in physics ... If we lived in a vacuum, our free will ... it would be really free ...

I'm starting to think we are referring to different things when we say "free". Free should mean independent of any constraints Our will, our decision making algorithm, like you called it, does seem to have a strong dependence upon those things you mentioned. It also works within our brains that should adhere to standard describable and predictable biophysics, even if our human brains are way too complex for us to monitor one in full to accurately claim that some thought occurred in such and such way.

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: And I can't imagine that they put a chip into my brain and now the computer tells me what to do, what to think, what to dream (i prefer mine unpredictable brain) or not to mention the fact that the hacker can put a virus into my brain and suddenly i would like to strangle the neighbor... so no thank you.... it is enough that the environment, education and law directs my choices..

There you go again... your choices are not truly free, are they?
And I think that, before anyone can make such a chip, we'll have to understand how the brain actually works.
On the other hand, it is remarkably easy to induce certain sensations that then induce certain behaviors...

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: But of course, I don't mind if technology can help us in our daily lives, when it can help us make our life easier ... eg when losing a hand or leg it can replace it .. and of course I don't mind if the technology contributes to improving the health of people with Parkinson's, Alzchaimer's or other brain diseases ... I know that implanting certain chips into the brain can stimulate it properly, which makes life easier for such people and sometimes even it can brings them back to live.
So, technology -YES, so long as it doesn't take away our humanity!

Totally agree.

(June 15, 2018 at 9:06 am)KittyAnn Wrote: Would I make a different decision? ... I think that if the conditions were different, other people, different environment, other upbringing, other circumstances ... certainly yes! Btw.. i was close to made a different decision...

Of course, if the conditions were different, the decision becomes unknown and possibly different...
But the question claims that everything is the same, your lifetime is the same, everything around you is the same, you are the same. Would your decision be any different?

I guess what I'm saying is that, while we think we make choices, from the pool of available behaviors at any given moment, all our background, mental, memorial, physical, genetic, etc will be what actually drives our decision making process and there is nothing, no mechanism by which can come to a decision that defies that.

Poca,maybe we could explore this in more detail over the ice-cream(because you don't drink coffee), huh?  
That's why I'm talking about the assumption ... we assume that it's free, because of course we know that there are certain limitations, as in the world of physics and life there is ... friction, rubbing and once more rubbing ....So in a sense, we have free will by rejecting these restrictions because we can decide for ourselves. It's known that if we focus on every living cell, we can immediately say that we're enslaved and we have nothing to talk about. A free man doesn't exist ...But on the level of human nature, our primitive thinking and our daily choices, we can assume peacefully that we have free will ...And I do not know why everyone assumes that free will is closely related to faith ... Anyway, each of us has a free will at the level of everyday choices, because we can decide for ourselves, we can even act against the law, against the family, against the whole world ... can we? We can! ...and this is the assumption that we have free will., but at the cellular level, of course, there is no such thing as free will, no will at all ...
So if everything is the same, my lifetime is the same, everything around me is the same, i'm the same....Would my decision be any different? Could be... I was thinking about a different solution ... But it's more likely that my choice would be the same, because the influence on me then had the family it means external factors and deprived me of my free choices.  

---

(June 15, 2018 at 10:21 am)Khemikal Wrote: No one needs to put a chip in your brain to accomplish any of that.  Human beings are wildly susceptible to conditioning.  Come to think of it, that might be a good use for such a chip, subverting the pathways of conditioned response.

On another note...do you find that technology and humanity are at odds..such that an increase in one is necessarily a decrease in the other?  I find myself thinking precisely the opposite..that our humanity is pretty much defined by our technology.  Thats our thing, our niche.  We;ve been looking for (and finding) ways to overcome our common mammalian biology since day one...the ultimate expression of what it means to be human may, in the end, be complete transcendence of that frame.  We;ve been dreaming about that for at least 50k years..all of our spiritual traditions are based upon that hope..after all.

I never said that technique, technology is in contradiction with humanity, it is actually on the contrary, that is what drives our lives, allowing us to develop... I just underline that technology can't replace humanity ... we are the overriding form ... technology is only a tool, a very important tool without which life would be very difficult right now ... though still possible ...
btw..i love new technology

(June 15, 2018 at 3:05 pm)KittyAnn Wrote:

(June 15, 2018 at 12:20 pm)pocaracas Wrote: I'm starting to think we are referring to different things when we say "free". Free should mean independent of any constraints Our will, our decision making algorithm, like you called it, does seem to have a strong dependence upon those things you mentioned. It also works within our brains that should adhere to standard describable and predictable biophysics, even if our human brains are way too complex for us to monitor one in full to accurately claim that some thought occurred in such and such way.


There you go again... your choices are not truly free, are they?
And I think that, before anyone can make such a chip, we'll have to understand how the brain actually works.
On the other hand, it is remarkably easy to induce certain sensations that then induce certain behaviors...



Totally agree.


Of course, if the conditions were different, the decision becomes unknown and possibly different...
But the question claims that everything is the same, your lifetime is the same, everything around you is the same, you are the same. Would your decision be any different?

I guess what I'm saying is that, while we think we make choices, from the pool of available behaviors at any given moment, all our background, mental, memorial, physical, genetic, etc will be what actually drives our decision making process and there is nothing, no mechanism by which can come to a decision that defies that.

Poca,maybe we could explore this in more detail over the ice-cream(because you don't drink coffee), huh?  
That's why I'm talking about the assumption ... we assume that it's free, because of course we know that there are certain limitations, as in the world of physics and life there is ... friction, rubbing and once more rubbing ....

Yeah.... I know what rubbing you mean... while having some ice cream...

(June 15, 2018 at 3:05 pm)KittyAnn Wrote: So in a sense, we have free will by rejecting these restrictions because we can decide for ourselves. It's known that if we focus on every living cell, we can immediately say that we're enslaved and we have nothing to talk about. A free man doesn't exist ...But on the level of human nature, our primitive thinking and our daily choices, we can assume peacefully that we have free will ...And I do not know why everyone assumes that free will is closely related to faith ... Anyway, each of us has a free will at the level of everyday choices, because we can decide for ourselves, we can even act against the law, against the family, against the whole world ... can we? We can! ...and this is the assumption that we have free will., but at the cellular level, of course, there is no such thing as free will, no will at all ...

That is what is usually referred to as the illusion of free will. I'm glad you accept it.

(June 15, 2018 at 3:05 pm)KittyAnn Wrote: So if everything is the same, my lifetime is the same, everything around me is the same, i'm the same....Would my decision be any different? Could be... I was thinking about a different solution ... But it's more likely that my choice would be the same, because the influence on me then had the family it means external factors and deprived me of my free choices.  

Sad, but true.