(June 16, 2018 at 6:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 16, 2018 at 9:13 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Are your neighbors here illegally?

I don't give a fuck. In my 51 years I have run into far more white citizens born here in far more legal trouble than you know. I'd take an undocumented peaceful family over lots of assholes born here. I have Hispanics living on both sides of me, have for over 10 years. NO I am NOT going to ask their status or rat them out. AND FUCK YOU for asking.

The west already had "PAPERS, LET ME SEE YOUR PAPERS" and that asshole committed suicide in a bunker in Berlin in 1945.

If you want to talk about invasions, just ask blacks and Native Americans. My Hispanic neighbors are only guilty of wanting what every human wants, a better life. I am NOT about to send them back to places where famine or crime would have them killed. Their nationality does not change that they ARE MY FELLOW HUMAN BEING.

Well, I’m not saying any of that. And they may be perfectly nice people. However, I don’t think that being a nice person exempts someone from the consequences of breaking the law.

(June 16, 2018 at 8:10 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 16, 2018 at 7:45 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Maybe the US should simply grant citizenship to everyone in the world.  Will that be enough to make everyone happy?

If you stupidly think I am against all deportation you are a fucking moron!

If you can send someone back to a comparable condition where they are not going to suffer oppression or famine or crime, sure. But it takes all western allies to delegate that, not just America. What I will NOT default to is breaking up families or sending humans back to places where they will die.

It is fucking easy for someone who has it better to judge those who don''t. 

DO NOT HAND ME ANY FUCKING BULLSHIT, that if you had a family to feed and where you were was bad you would not try to migrate to where conditions are better.

We don't even take care of our homeless citizens and veterans.  Why should we go all out to help foreigners who have nothing in common with us?  If we wanted to help them we should overthrow their worthless leaders and run their countries for them.  That way they would get the advantage of living under the American government without having to come to America.

(June 16, 2018 at 10:49 pm)henryp Wrote:

(June 16, 2018 at 5:39 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Possibly not, but I can certainly blame him for not stopping this cruel, inhuman (not just 'inhumane'...'inhuman'), and psychologically damaging practice of separating children from parents.  He could, I'm given to understand, stop it instantly. Since he has opted not to do so, I blame him for all the harm caused by this practice, including the Honduran man who committed suicide after his three year old son was forcibly taken from him.

Boru

It's not good, but what's the practical answer?  

A policy of detaining people trying to enter the country illegally is not a controversial idea, I don't think, is it?  So what do you do with the kids when the parents are detained?  The law says you can't stick the kids in a detainment facility with the adults, but you can't just let the kids run off into the desert.  

They can 1000% make sure the facilities are well-staffed and run as humanely as possible.  It sounds like some are, and some aren't.  That is something the government should do.  They can change the law, so families can be detained together.  I guess that's better?  Kids in a cell with dad, instead of in a facility with the other kids?  I guess that depends again on the quality of the other facility.

I may have been misinformed, but it is my understanding that separating families is a policy, not a law.  There is no law that says you can't do this, but there is no law requiring that you do this.

Boru

edit:  I took it upon myself to do a little research:  It is NOT illegal to keep kids in detainment facilities.  Under your last two presidents, this is precisely what was done.  The difference now is that the Trump administration has made crossing the border anywhere other than at a designated border point a criminal act - a presumption of guilt now exists which the administration uses to justify putting the adults into (essentially) a prison instead of a detention facility until their case is decided.  This is a cruel, cruel ruse used to stop ALL immigration into the US (even families of legitimate asylum seekers who enter AT border crossing points are being split up).

Fuck Donald Trump.  Fuck Jeff Sessions.  Fuck anyone who tries to sugar-coat the shattering of familes.

(June 17, 2018 at 3:49 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 16, 2018 at 10:49 pm)henryp Wrote: It's not good, but what's the practical answer?  

A policy of detaining people trying to enter the country illegally is not a controversial idea, I don't think, is it?  So what do you do with the kids when the parents are detained?  The law says you can't stick the kids in a detainment facility with the adults, but you can't just let the kids run off into the desert.  

They can 1000% make sure the facilities are well-staffed and run as humanely as possible.  It sounds like some are, and some aren't.  That is something the government should do.  They can change the law, so families can be detained together.  I guess that's better?  Kids in a cell with dad, instead of in a facility with the other kids?  I guess that depends again on the quality of the other facility.

I may have been misinformed, but it is my understanding that separating families is a policy, not a law.  There is no law that says you can't do this, but there is no law requiring that you do this.

Boru

edit:  I took it upon myself to do a little research:  It is NOT illegal to keep kids in detainment facilities.  Under your last two presidents, this is precisely what was done.  The difference now is that the Trump administration has made crossing the border anywhere other than at a designated border point a criminal act - a presumption of guilt now exists which the administration uses to justify putting the adults into (essentially) a prison instead of a detention facility until their case is decided.  This is a cruel, cruel ruse used to stop ALL immigration into the US (even families of legitimate asylum seekers who enter AT border crossing points are being split up).

Fuck Donald Trump.  Fuck Jeff Sessions.  Fuck anyone who tries to sugar-coat the shattering of familes.

So, the problem with detention facilities, is there are legal limits to the length of time children can be kept in them.  And because the system is backlogged, in the Obama administration, they'd just release the family and give them a court date.  But then they would just head off into the US with no guarantee they'd come back.  Which is an opportunity they wouldn't get if they tried to enter legally at the border.  If they attempt legally, they either are admitted or turned away as a family.

To your point of legal border crossings resulting in families being split up, I've read that they are supposed to only do that if they feel the child is in danger, which makes sense.  I'm sure there are abuses, but that's not by design.

Sessions response, is to close the loophole by charging people with entering illegally, rather than just releasing everybody and hoping they come back to court.  It's a bad solution.  But the alternative is also bad.  But you don't have to enter the country illegally.  And as I said earlier, having borders is not a controversial position.  The answer is changing the laws to work better.  Ideally, to more quickly have people accepted/rejected as a family as they are when applying legally.  

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/c...ed-parents

When the Obama administration attempted to respond to the “crisis” of families and unaccompanied children crossing the border in summer 2014, it  — a practice that had basically ended several years before. But federal courts stopped the administration from holding families for months without justifying the decision to keep them in detention. So most families ended up getting released while their cases were pending...

"Don't have too"

Lol 

Boru

(June 17, 2018 at 9:39 am)henryp Wrote: Sessions response, is to close the loophole by charging people with entering illegally, rather than just releasing everybody and hoping they come back to court.  It's a bad solution.  But the alternative is also bad.  But you don't have to enter the country illegally.  And as I said earlier, having borders is not a controversial position.  The answer is changing the laws to work better.  Ideally, to more quickly have people accepted/rejected as a family as they are when applying legally.  

And this newer, more responsive system is going to be funded by giving massive tax breaks to corporations and the rich?

(June 17, 2018 at 11:17 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Boru

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/toddler-cage-photo/

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(June 17, 2018 at 11:21 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 17, 2018 at 9:39 am)henryp Wrote: Sessions response, is to close the loophole by charging people with entering illegally, rather than just releasing everybody and hoping they come back to court.  It's a bad solution.  But the alternative is also bad.  But you don't have to enter the country illegally.  And as I said earlier, having borders is not a controversial position.  The answer is changing the laws to work better.  Ideally, to more quickly have people accepted/rejected as a family as they are when applying legally.  

And this newer, more responsive system is going to be funded by giving massive tax breaks to corporations and the rich?

There's plenty of money floating around in our government.  They can always scrape together a few billion if they need to tax cuts or no tax cuts.

(June 17, 2018 at 9:39 am)henryp Wrote:

(June 17, 2018 at 3:49 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I may have been misinformed, but it is my understanding that separating families is a policy, not a law.  There is no law that says you can't do this, but there is no law requiring that you do this.

Boru

edit:  I took it upon myself to do a little research:  It is NOT illegal to keep kids in detainment facilities.  Under your last two presidents, this is precisely what was done.  The difference now is that the Trump administration has made crossing the border anywhere other than at a designated border point a criminal act - a presumption of guilt now exists which the administration uses to justify putting the adults into (essentially) a prison instead of a detention facility until their case is decided.  This is a cruel, cruel ruse used to stop ALL immigration into the US (even families of legitimate asylum seekers who enter AT border crossing points are being split up).

Fuck Donald Trump.  Fuck Jeff Sessions.  Fuck anyone who tries to sugar-coat the shattering of familes.

So, the problem with detention facilities, is there are legal limits to the length of time children can be kept in them.  And because the system is backlogged, in the Obama administration, they'd just release the family and give them a court date.  But then they would just head off into the US with no guarantee they'd come back.  Which is an opportunity they wouldn't get if they tried to enter legally at the border.  If they attempt legally, they either are admitted or turned away as a family.

To your point of legal border crossings resulting in families being split up, I've read that they are supposed to only do that if they feel the child is in danger, which makes sense.  I'm sure there are abuses, but that's not by design.

Sessions response, is to close the loophole by charging people with entering illegally, rather than just releasing everybody and hoping they come back to court.  It's a bad solution.  But the alternative is also bad.  But you don't have to enter the country illegally.  And as I said earlier, having borders is not a controversial position.  The answer is changing the laws to work better.  Ideally, to more quickly have people accepted/rejected as a family as they are when applying legally.  

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/c...ed-parents

When the Obama administration attempted to respond to the “crisis” of families and unaccompanied children crossing the border in summer 2014, it  — a practice that had basically ended several years before. But federal courts stopped the administration from holding families for months without justifying the decision to keep them in detention. So most families ended up getting released while their cases were pending...

None of this addresses the problem of separating families. Yes we have borders and yes we have detention centers, there is always room for improvement in these areas but I don't see any value in taking children from their parents, it just seems cruel especially since this administration has already admitted that they are using it as a deterrent. The only way that "making the citizenship process easier" fixes the problem, is if the administration is prepared to approve large numbers of immigrants. If most immigrants are being denied then they are probably going to try and sneak in anyway and given the rhetoric being spewed by the current administration I don't see them being more accepting.

(June 17, 2018 at 11:38 am)henryp Wrote:

(June 17, 2018 at 11:21 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: And this newer, more responsive system is going to be funded by giving massive tax breaks to corporations and the rich?

There's plenty of money floating around in our government.  They can always scrape together a few billion if they need to tax cuts or no tax cuts.

I don't think you're living in the same reality that the rest of us are living in. Is that how you balance your own finances, you just "find money"?