Can God love?

[Godscreated]

Sin is a crime against God, just as murder is a crime against man, both deserve punishment. Found guilty of murder a man is punished, not just forgiven and let go. found guilty of sin a man is punished not just forgiven, a price has to be paid in both cases. Jesus paid the price for those who will accept Him as their savior and then God will forgive the sins. How about that for thought.

Why did Jesus have to pay the price though? why couldn't god (who can do anything) simply forgive, you have yet to provide a answer to that. If you don't know simply say that you don't know.  That a god would have to brutally sacrifice his son is stupid beyond belief, and how would god find the smell of burning flesh pleasing, i mean really !

Did I not say I wasn't going to go through such long posts because I haven't the time nor do I wish to argue things that are necessary, so I've chosen this one, and I have answered it before but will try to bring it to a level of understanding you can handle.

Jesus had to pay the price because no one else could, it took the perfect sinless man to shed blood to cover our sin. God said that innocent blood was the only thing that could cover sin, that is why He set specific rules on the animals to be sacrificed. Now you are wondering why this had to be I suppose, well we have to go back to Genesis and to the fall of Adam and Eve to find this answer. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into this world by their disobedience. When God found them they were hiding because the for one were afraid and two they understood what naked meant now that sin was part of their lives. God having compassion for them made a choice and brought the first death into the world, God was forced to kill a part of His creation and to this point God had only created life, He was the life giver. God kill animals and used their skins to cloth Adam and Eve, (you're probably think why didn't He just create some), these cloths cost innocent animals their lives, their innocent blood was spilled to cover those who were now in a state where they understood nakedness and they understood this because they had sinned. Thus God from that time forward was going to require innocent blood to cover man's sin. Now the why above, why He did this and why He did not just create cloths, God wanted man to see the horrors of sin so he would understand what sin cost not just man but cost God. Adam and Eve saw in the same day they sinned death come and that death was laid upon them in the form of cloths showing their guilt to all of creation. God has never been at fault, man has brought all this terrible stuff on himself and the natural world, just as God said would happen if/when Adam and Eve sinned. It wasn't a question as to whether they would sin God knew it was going to happen even before He created the first thing, that is why God the Son said He would give His life as a man for those He had created, He wanted us back, He wanted our love and the relationship that goes with that love, the relationship is why man was created in the first place. So now you have the why of the blood and of Jesus sacrifice, it is a reminder to man of the horror of sin. To answer the last part, God the Father did not kill His Son man did from the beginning of time till the crucifixion on the cross. Sin is a horrible thing that cost God and man the perfect creation and the perfect relationship, but with the love God has for everyone he has patiently let this thing run it's coarse and awaits any that will accept what Jesus did for a sinful world. If this is not a satisfactory answer then you need not ask again because this is the truth of why Jesus allowed man to kill Him and be the perfect sacrifice to save those who desired a renewed relationship with God.

You're like a broken record, you just repeat the same old trash even when it has been clearly spelled out for you. Usually the one who feels the guilt feels threatened even when no threat was intended or given. Sin has been explained here a thousand times or more and yet no atheist to my knowledge considers it to be right.

Well no they are valid questions, and given that you have explained sin a thousand times (you say) and still no atheist to your knowledge considers it right, isn't that a clue how silly it is.  Sure people do things wrong to each other, but so what ?

So what, some kind of compassion you have for your fellow man, it's a good thing God doesn't share your thoughtlessness for others. The sin is not necessarily against man, it is against the man God created and thus it is against God and because God gave us laws to live by, laws of love the two most important according to Jesus, "love God with all your heart and do the same for your fellow man. Just because a few hard headed atheist do not want to realize what sin truly is doesn't mean it's not real, the world at large understands, it's only those who do not want to be responsible for their actions that reject sin. There will be a day when those who reject the idea of sin will have to pay for theirs, I am glad I found the One who has saved me from payment.

GC  

 If you have anything else you want to discuss that you posted pick them out one or two at a time and we can go over them.

[emjay]

Interesting story above. IMO you don't give yourself enough credit for your achievements... IMO it was your own determination, ingenuity, and intuition that has led to the success of your business and inventions.

Here's the thing... You know when an idea is yours... and you know when you watch something that gives you an idea or an understanding that you did not previously understand. When I started sketching I was given like an instruction to sketch a relay as I was focused on make out all the electrical detail I was given another component, and another and another and another till I had a page of them then I took a red marker and it was like playing connect the dots. I highlighted dots and connected allowing for correct circuit spacing and intersections. then picked up a green pen did the same and a black, each corresponding to a different time or usage of a circuit. when I was done the problem was complete. I looked at it and was like how the hell did this just happen. then I slide it across the table (something I would never do) to the main guy and said this should work. Then barely understanding what I did I had to explain it. This happened one other time when I was given an understanding of how evolution and creation could be made to work seamlessly together. However in this case I could not check anything. I just trusted the work, and like i said the egg heads bounced their doubts off of it for sometime and like here I answered everything even if they did not think it would work or want to hear it. When the idea is yours you know it when it comes from someplace else you know that too. it is hard to explain.

Well it certainly is curious... but it would be much more curious to me if the idea that came to you was outside your realm of expertise (eg as some sort of electrical engineer)... like if I... as someone who has very little understanding of electronics... if I started drawing complex circuit diagrams off the top of my head then I'd be like 'WTF is going on here?'. Or if started writing/speaking in a foreign language that I'd had no exposure to... (and tongues doesn't count ; it would have to be a language that could be verified by others as a language, word for word)... then again, I'd be like 'WTF is going on here?'. But if the idea was related to a subject I was familiar with/interested in/or had been exposed to, then no matter how novel or out of the blue the idea was, I'd put it down to subconscious intuition because if you think about it like this, what is an idea but a rearrangement of properties you already know, in a novel configuration? For instance, do you know those old point and click adventure games like Monkey Island? 'Use objectX with objectY to do Z/make objectZ'... in those sorts of games some of the combinations are more obvious, such as 'use pin with balloon', and some are more obscure, but what happens in those games is often you get completely stuck... but then if you just sleep on it... sometimes the answer just comes out of the blue to you the next day. In other words, the day before you'd been trying to work it out consciously and maybe getting stressed with it, having mental blocks with it, and making the wrong assumptions about it (like how you're led to do when solving riddles... they rely on you making the wrong assumptions to begin with, forcing you to 'think outside the box' if you're going to have any hope of solving them), but once you consciously let go of all that, it leaves your subconscious, free of all those assumptions, to look at the big picture... because it has access to everything you've been exposed to and therefore is free to 'rearrange properties you know' to its heart's content behind the scenes... and maybe find a solution, which would come to you as an idea, seemingly out of the blue.

Intuition is not always the easiest thing to trust, due its usual 'out of the blue' nature... but it's a very real thing and more trustable the more obvious the reasoning for it is... ie the more you can consciously link the feeling/idea to what you consciously know in the moment. Another example of intuition is gut feelings... for instance the feeling that something is 'too good to be true'.... which is again difficult to trust because you can't immediately see the reason for it... but your subconscious can see the big picture. So in that sense you could have ideas which obviously follow from previous thinking and they would be more consciously trustable than ideas that don't appear to follow your previous thinking. So in your case where you've described an out of the blue idea, but within your realm of expertise... in the sense that you understood the parts (eg electronics knowledge) just not how they fit together into a solution, and have trusted the idea despite barely understanding it... that is definitely curious... especially the level of confidence you showed in it by tossing it across the table saying 'this should work', but perhaps one explanation could be that you have learnt to trust your intuition, perhaps more than most people would, by attributing it to a gift from god. Were you a Christian before this happened? Ie, if you understand what I'm meaning by intuition here, were you already routinely trusting your intuition, or God, if you prefer to call it that, before this?

And you're always saying you didn't do well at school but so what? Some people are better with their hands. And the fact that you self-taught yourself loads of stuff only shows more your determination... something to be admired.

Again when it was time, it was like someone turned on a switch. not that I refigured out the english language on my own or invented geometry or algerbra for myself. it was like I knew nothing found God, and he turn on what was missing/healed me of my retardedness if you will (was literally in Learning Disabled classes from the start till I finished.)

Again, I'd be inclined to put that down to intuition... depending on how much prior exposure you had to the subject in question... ie there's a difference between not understanding a subject you're interested in/studying and then it suddenly clicking in a lightbulb moment of clarity (intuition), and going from zero exposure in a subject to full knowledge in that subject in a flash (eg the foreign language example above)... the latter I would have no explanation for, not even a guess, but the former just makes sense as subconscious intuition. For instance I have an example in my own life that could be comparable to yours but it goes in the opposite direction; when I was 18 it clicked for me in a 'moment of clarity' that 'there is no god'. I remember exactly where I was, nearly twenty years later... right down to the table I was sitting at in the college classroom... when that idea came to me, showing it was a powerful emotional event - flashbulb memory. But the thing was, I was not consciously reasoning towards that conclusion, or even wanting it... ie it came to me completely out of the blue. Indeed, before that I was almost as stubborn a Christian as you and defended it without doubt against onslaught after onslaught by my predominantly atheist friends. But after that moment, everything changed and a whole new worldview opened up to me, which snowballed in that direction with more and more things clicking. That sounds very similar to what you describe as your experience of finding god, both in terms of the snowball effect and how emotionally powerful and memorable the experience was.

And I can't remember exactly what you said but it was a friend? of yours that gave you some money, which you saw as an answer to prayer and/or prophecy?

A stranger a man I had met only in passing could not describe gave me a 25K dollar loan. I did work for his company, but never met the owner before.

Like you working for starbucks and the owner of a coffee bean supplier who your store buys from gives you money to set up your own store. Not because you deserved it but because He was lead to/felt the need to.. 17 years ago comming off 9-11 25K investment when everything was gong south was a very big deal. especially to a 26 year old who you didn't even know.

Did he give it to you as a gift or was he investing in your business?

no intrest loan, could not charge him labor but fair mark up on parts. took less than a year to pay him back.

Either way I think this time you're not giving your friend enough credit...

again this man was a stranger. I did not even know his name.

How exactly did all this come about, if you don't mind me asking? Did he just come up to you out of the blue and say 'here, would you like a loan of $25, 000?' or was there anything that led up to that? For a start, were you looking for a loan at the time... asking around... or did others know of your financial situation and/or goals? And was this guy a Christian?

if you attribute it to God. My guess is he saw your potential and determination...

Could be. But It's not about how God get people like that to work with us that is amazing, it is about living a lifetime where little things like that happens almost every day. Once twice a years is off the chart for most people. Imagine getting to see little miracles like this every day... It's hard not to attribute those thing s to God. I could not imagine how hard life would be if I had to make it on my own.

My uncle was the hardest working man I ever knew you know what hard work and 40 years of determination got him? broken back followed by 2 strokes and several heart attacks.. just pushed himself too hard for too long till his body quit. Again I've worked like that too, I know what hard work is.. what I am doing now isn't. it all just comes to me. look at how much time I spend with you all while I have a shop buzzing about. Again not a leader not a business man I just do things the way I want them done. I just practice what I preach and we have much to show for it. Again as a gift from God, not because i deserve it.

Again, this could be due to you trusting your intuition... and that snowball effect... and going with the flow with it. I've mentioned this before, that someone close to me has a similar type of worldview to you, not Christian but a 'universe will provide' view, which results in them being endlessly positive about things and essentially seeing 'little miracles' everywhere... and having a similar sort of determination and bounce-back-ability as you. It is pretty cool, don't get me wrong... because it does lead to a certain 'emotional robustness' you could call it... if everything's seen as part of a plan... but though I may have seen things that way before, when I was a Christian, and in some ways do miss it, I could never see them again that way... and instead just see that as the power of positive thinking, belief, and bias.

like if you went on The Apprentice with the attitude and determination you've described, I bet Alan Sugar would snap you up in a heartbeat.

I watch youtube videos on how to raise bees and butcher you own live stock now, (we got chickens and can't decide what is next)

Not to mention I can't see how you can attribute the actions of your friend to God anyway, given that he gave it to you out of his own free will which, under your system, God doesn't mess with.

At the time again never met the guy. we became friends later after I repaid him, and he later died.. his wife had a refrigeration rental ompany we promised to work on labor free (like the old deal we had so long as she kept the company)

And as for your innovations, did you understand the ideas that came to you? If you did, that just shows subconscious intuition in progress... your brain working behind the scenes putting the pieces together, ready for a light bulb moment.

IMO it's all you.

Again maybe. then again I've had idea some pan out other do not. This one was perfect out of the gate we only added to the initial construct we never changed anything. and like I said you know when an idea was yours.. but like here sometimes God takes over and all I'm left to do is try and spell out what he is giving me.

Ever produce something self consciously that mirrored the bible in 10 different ways and not know it till you go back and look up the passages you just wrote down?

Again there is a difference between having an idea come out of your head then watching something and learning as you go. This was a total learning experience for me.

Well if you put any stock in what I've said about subconscious intuition... it's not always right; after all you and I both had different flashes of inspiration, you coming to the conclusion that he God does exist and me coming to the conclusion that he didn't... we can't both be right. In other words, subconscious intuition only works to rearrange data you've already been exposed to into novel configurations (ie ideas), some better than others, ie your subconscious works with what it's given through a lifetime of learning about/exposure to different subjects... but it can only work with that... making it true, from my perspective that psychologically the old saying 'nothing new under the sun' makes sense; that all ideas are only reconfigurations of existing knowledge, and since no two people have been exposed to exactly the same life experiences and information in their lives, it stands to reason that intuitions can be very different across individuals.

[I_am_not_mafia]

 There are more lies told in the scientific community than one could count and why to promote science as infallible and it's not. Protecting something through lies is disgraceful and in the end makes science look cheap. Nothing that is real science contradict anything about God, so you can just throw that argument out the door, many scientist have tried that argument and then can't dismiss God with their knowledge. There are many truths out side of science that are universal, the world does not revolve around science even though you may believe so. Truth is something that can stand the test of time, unchanging and unchangeable. The ultimate truth is God himself.

This has been pointed out to you many times in the past but I correct what you are saying once again. The scientific method is self correcting. That is the whole point of it. Unlike religion, things that were previously considered correct can be overturned in light of new evidence.

Deliberate fudging of results and lies are extremely rare. It does happen occasionally but not for long because other scientists either try to replicate results or build upon them. And if the science is incorrect, for whatever reason, then this eventually gets discovered and discarded. Science that is incorrect is of no use to anyone and therefore has a limited shelf life.

This is why science is useful and created the modern world and religion spreads ignorance and intolerance.

[Angrboda]

[Drich]

[emjay]

[Drich]

[Angrboda]

Yes I was, and Again an honest person knows where his abilities begin and where they end.

I suspect the reason that you believe this is because you don't know where your abilities begin and end.

[I_am_not_mafia]

I wish I could share this experience or describe it better if people still think this is a matter of intuition. I've had moment of intuition, and this is not that. this is like intuition like the difference between watching a movie and learning something, and making a movie people learn from.

I feel like that when on the (like now for example)

Like feelings man! Why do we have to put everything into words? Have you ever jammed with someone? It's like ... you connect on a whole different level. Not communicating words or ideas but pure emotion man. It's like your emotional selves become expressed as vibrations in the air that become intertwined and the result is fed back through your ears. Intuition is like the halfway stage between cognition, which is a window upon the sea of intuition, and pure emotions which are whole scale neuromodulation acting as gain controls on whole cortices.

I love you man.

[emjay]

...
Intuition is like the halfway stage between cognition, which is a window upon the sea of intuition, and pure emotions which are whole scale neuromodulation acting as gain controls on whole cortices.
...

I like that description