Can God love?

[emjay]

Interesting story above. IMO you don't give yourself enough credit for your achievements... IMO it was your own determination, ingenuity, and intuition that has led to the success of your business and inventions. And you're always saying you didn't do well at school but so what? Some people are better with their hands. And the fact that you self-taught yourself loads of stuff only shows more your determination... something to be admired.

And I can't remember exactly what you said but it was a friend? of yours that gave you some money, which you saw as an answer to prayer and/or prophecy? Did he give it to you as a gift or was he investing in your business? Either way I think this time you're not giving your friend enough credit... if you attribute it to God. My guess is he saw your potential and determination... like if you went on The Apprentice with the attitude and determination you've described, I bet Alan Sugar would snap you up in a heartbeat.

Not to mention I can't see how you can attribute the actions of your friend to God anyway, given that he gave it to you out of his own free will which, under your system, God doesn't mess with. And as for your innovations, did you understand the ideas that came to you? If you did, that just shows subconscious intuition in progress... your brain working behind the scenes putting the pieces together, ready for a light bulb moment.

IMO it's all you.

A perfect example of how religion is a parasite.

I don't disagree... I just use a different word for it; I think it was Richard Dawkins? who talked about 'memes'... as in an idea... a little bit of mental programming... that is easily picked up, retained, and passed on... and in that sense parasitic whatever they are; where the two properties they can be judged on are basically their persistence and usefulness... and where in that light, religion would be a persistent but useless/nefarious meme.

[I_am_not_mafia]

I sometimes refer to religion as a parasitic meme for that reason.

[robvalue]

It's funny how people from different religions all get "benefits"; even though they claim, at the same time, that this can't be possible.

because they are not benefits as you see them. they are means to an end another responsibility another 'test' to mke you ready for the next level.

I started my business it was just me and I could even afford to pay my wife part time. so she worked for free off the books. then I was privy to 'lots of benefits' which required lots of works self sacrifice pain and loss. which prompted me for the next level of hard work, pain and loss. and so on it goes. Yes there is benefit, but in the end you know none of this belongs to you and can be ask back at any moment. why because you are a servant, not one being serviced by a genie.

Uhuh, but people from any other religion can report the same benefits. So either god hands them out to people who are even in the wrong religion; or else god isn't involved at all.

[Godscreated]

   

I'm not going to get into a drawn out argument with you because it will go nowhere and I haven't the time right now.

Odin and Thor are non-existent so why would you feel loved by them. I'm not stupid

That's exactly the same reason that i don't feel unloved by your god, it was your claim that atheists felt unloved (by your god), I was merely pointing out to you how silly that was.

I did not say atheist, I was responding only to the OP, Jormungandr. I have said all along that she is loved, it was her that said she did not fell loved and I said her notion was untrue. You seem to have everything backwards, probably because all you want to do is interfere and derail a conversation, one that was not directed to you. This is another reason I want get into a drawn out argument with you.

I know that this is a conversation about if God exists as far as the atheist are concerned. You do not know what might be going through her mind/heart now do you. As far as God being non-existent, you have yet to establish such a claim. 

Then why have labels at all ? If you are going to say they mean nothing because a particular person may be having other thoughts at any particular time.
And I don't need to prove that god is non existent, just like you have not proven Odin or Thor do not exist, even when given a whole thread to do so by Mathilda using your own logic.  You are making the positive claim, you provide the proof.

The bold by me is an old and tired argument by atheist that has no merit. When I ask atheist to do the same on claims they make about different things they always counter it's not necessary. It is a consensus that Odin and Thor are not real, those that know about them have relegated them to fantasy, so I have no obligation to disprove what is already widely accepted as nonexistent. 

man has put himself outside of God's presence and it has to be man's choice to return and God has given us a way to do just that, if you do not accept it that is your fault not God's.

 

Again you simply repeat the mantra  .. you need to do this or that , and it's your fault.

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is. Tell me if (the if is for your sake alone) God exists would you want Him to make you love Him, do you have a desire to be slaved into God's family.

There is no if, either you accept or you do not, it's all up to you. Look at the bold if by me, I use that word to make the statement more acceptable to atheist, but I fixed it and it still reads the same. You reject God that is your fault and a terrible fault it will be, see no if.

That is an 'if' (i.e. you need to do this or that) another it's your fault, sprinkled with a hint of threat, like father like son hey  

You are not very smart are you, I can't threaten you with something I have no control over, you may perceive it as such but that is only in your mind and holds no truth. To need to do something is not an "if" it is a certainty, please try to understand the difference between an "if' and a certainty. In a certainty that you do nothing or the wrong thing it does become your fault, I'm correct in what I say, you on the other hand are out to impress your atheist friends, a shallow venture IMO.

What makes you believe God can simply forgive sin, because you say so, not hardly.

Why can't god a god who can  do anything simply forgive, have you even thought it through ?

Sin is a crime against God, just as murder is a crime against man, both deserve punishment. Found guilty of murder a man is punished, not just forgiven and let go. found guilty of sin a man is punished not just forgiven, a price has to be paid in both cases. Jesus paid the price for those who will accept Him as their savior and then God will forgive the sins. How about that for thought.

Sin will only be forgiven for those who have remorse over their sin and to do so one must understand what sin is and I've yet to speak to an atheist who knows why sin is sin. By the way what God did is your only hope for eternal life, other wise it will be eternal punishment.

And here we go again, an 'if' you do this or that, followed by a 'you don't understand' , maybe you could open a thread about sin telling us what we don't understand ?  And of course the inevitable (but entirely predictable) threat of eternal punishment.

You're like a broken record, you just repeat the same old trash even when it has been clearly spelled out for you. Usually the one who feels the guilt feels threatened even when no threat was intended or given. Sin has been explained here a thousand times or more and yet no atheist to my knowledge considers it to be right. 

Because man placed a barrier between himself and God don't you think that it's man's responsibility

And what father allows that barrier to stand ?

Good cherry picking job, almost. I know what he rest of my statement said and so will anyone else if they care to go read it to find the truth. I will explain again since you seem to have trouble understanding simple things. God the Son came and lived in the form of man as Jesus, preach and lived a sinless life, was crucified by man for crimes He did not commit, laid dead in a tomb and then His body was resurrected to eternal life. God broke the barrier down and it's man's responsibility to accept the actions God took on man's behalf. So the heavenly Father did remove the barrier that man could have never done. Many human fathers let barriers stand between them and their children, happens most often in divorces. 

Now your just being childish, there's no if to it and it was a question to be answered by the one I posted to, not for a nosy busy body to come along and deflect from the discussion.

Great so I don't have to do anything then, god will simply forgive me  

Again being childish, grow up.

we have no way to make things right between ourselves and our Creator, so God through His undivided love made a way possible for us and if you refuse this gift it's your loss.

Whoaa hang on, if fact there is an 'if' I have to do something... followed of course by threats (there is definitely a pattern to your writing)

That makes no sense at all. The pattern you see come from the guilt in your heart that you apparently do not see. You do nothing more than reach out and accept the gift with a contrite heart. Or you can pay your own price.

Same as above the bold if by me. leaving out the if doesn't change the fact and it makes it sound as if there is no hope. Why did you jump into this conversation anyway, nothing better to do that to show your ignorance of God would be my guess.

Ermm okay, though in my defence it's hard to have knowledge about a god that is the same as no god.

That will not be a defense at your judgement, God says no one will come before me with that defense. Seeking God is a simple process, plainly laid out in the NT.

acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world.

Ahh another 'if' you do this or that' .. no death threats this time, well done.

Acceptance of a gift is not doing something, it's free, there is no free if you reject it and this is not a threat it is what God promises, if I'm right you're in trouble, if I'm not we are on equal ground. You think that hell is death, not hardly. people in hell will have eternal life also, they will live the punishment they establish for themselves in this life, yes you read it correctly, you are pronouncing your own punishment. God just sends you to a place to live that punishment for eternity, the punishment you determined by the life you live.

More childishness and you use if more than I do, but you do it to be derogatory, I place it to show hope, a hope you seem to be careless in handling. By the way that is a positive statement I made, no if to it child, acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world, in many ways. So far you have completely miss out on what this conversation was about, and I remember she said to Drich to stay on track, which you certainly haven't accomplished at all.

Shakes head, we are talking about how god can't love right ? just showing you that merely proclaiming it in the face of threats is not love. 

No you are not doing that at all, you are trying to derail a conversation I was having with another and i'm talking about how God loves everyone, I told you you had no idea what this thread was to be about. God has never threatened you and I certainly haven't because I haven't any authority over your eternal destination, you do though, so I guess you could say the threat is actually coming from yourself, surprised. From you is the only place a threat can come from, a guilty heart is the one that perceives a threat, God doesn't threaten He gives a choice, I can't threaten because i haven't the authority to determine your finial destination, you do though by simply accepting the free gift of salvation.

You are not trying to find God nor His love and you want God to bow down to what you want,

Well like most ex-christians on this board, we experienced what at the time we thought was god's mysterious, unfathomable, unexplainable  love, but alas it just turned out to be brainwashing. The feeling is though speaking to people of other faiths and religious practices is not limited to christianity, it's all in the head.

You were never a Christian, if you had known God as I do you would have never ran away, a Christians knows God's love is not mysterious, unfathomable, unexplainable, we do have an understanding of God's love, it's even laid out in plain English in the NT. That was your problem you had head knowledge and never experienced God in your heart/soul. It's obvious you did not study the scriptures by the way you argue against God and His love.

The pattern you believe you see exists only in your childish mind.

No I'm pretty sure you have very definite pattern along the lines of ..  

1) if you do this or that  (the if is to show hope)
2) it's your fault (you have a choice)  
3) you are going to suffer terribly (this could be the result of your choice) 

My answers are in red above

The real pattern here is you can do nothing other than be derogatory about a conversation that wasn't even directed at you, nosy.

It's an open forum silly, i mean really you do know anyone can read or respond in the open section ?

Of coarse, the thing is you have missed the whole point of my first post, you are out to derail the conversation and nothing more.

No that statement is a positive one and true at that. You have no real argument about this conversation only foolish child like nonsense.

Okay Mr believer in talking donkeys, Flying chariots, Talking serpents, men living in mammals for three days.. got ya  

Supernatural power. How is it you believe the animal that swallowed Jonah was a mammal, oh that's right you haven't bothered to read the story.  

That was implied, sorry you are so carried away with your degradation that you are blind to what's being said, but then that would be your fault. Again I eliminated the if and the statement is the same. The if is to make a kinder feeling. You can't understand such a concept though because all you know how to do is blindly follow your ifs.

Then if it was implied, why compare it to god's supposed love ?  The lady in question would have no doubt that..

1) You existed
2) That you loved her by showing a display of that love

One would have thought that if god truly loves and is capable of love, that he would show that love in a clear way, in no way is it comparable, unless of course you court this lady by being invisible,  untouchable, unfathomable, and give death threats is she does not love you back. Then toss in eternal torment as an aside.

God does do things a bit different but then He has to. Man in his state of sin can not look upon such a holy being, therefore one can't possibly see Him. God the Son came to live as a man named Jesus and was killed by man for all man's sin so man could re-enter an open relationship with God, He couldn't have shown it any clearer way. He finished it by rising from the dead and into eternal life so we could have hope in an eternal relationship with Him. As I explained before God does not give death threats, even if you choose to reject Christ you will live forever, only it will be in the place you chose ans you'll suffer the punishment you made.

How is it you can define what God's love is and does, you've never wanted it,

I'm not trying to define it at all, that's the point, gods love simply does not exists it's a man made construct. The unfathomable, spiritual, and you have to believe it's true before it's true, is simply a way of trying to explain why a god who can do anything, is love.. is exactly the same as no god at all.

Prove the bold by me. No atheist has been able to for thousands of years, will you be the first. Prove the rest of your statement because God is definitely real and always has been, so coming into belief involves coming to know Him who has existed for an eternity. God is not love because He is omnipotent, He is love because that is who He is.

I did not say it was her fault, I said she doesn't want something that has been offered, please try and understand an entire conversation before you blatantly try to derail the conversation, a trick of children. Again you have not established God doesn't exist or that He is a fantasy. Because you are blind to the existence of God doesn't mean He isn't real and waiting on you to respond to the love He has already given you.

Yes but again in your example she knows you exists, in fact you have made that blatantly obvious, and you have made your love clear in an understandable way.  I doubt she would be as understanding if you had your brutally murdered your son and then claimed you loved her, and tossed in eternal torment as the alternative.

Knowing I exist does is no assurance she recognizes me. Because I make my love clear doesn't mean she understands it. Man murdered Jesus not the Father, Christ volunteered to come and live and die as Jesus, He was not forced to do so. No one is tossed into eternal torment that does not deserve to be there, each makes it clear they prefer not to live with God so hell is the only place left, it's the place the lost choose and they decide their own punishment in the way they live this life. You see everyone punishment in hell will be different in type and intensity but it will be everlasting.  

I've accepted it, you bold the answer why couldn't you see it, shame, shame second grade understanding that is.
No when one believes they know. More ifs from you, only in a derogatory way.
No if in that statement, you are so if crazy you are seeing things, help may be in order for you. It is a completely positive statement and has a result in choice one way or the other and there is no if about it.

What's with this positive statement thing ? Sure (in theology) we have to make a choice but isn't that an 'if' we make a choice i.e.: 'If' we do this or that.  In other words god's love is never realised unless we (who cannot do anything) actually do something ?
So it's conditional there is no other way to dress it up.

The positive statement is the same as giving truth. No there is a decision to be made in this world created by God with man corrupting the creation through his disobedience man was then left with the decision to correct the disobedience by acceptance of Jesus and His work for us. Man has forced himself into the position of needing to make this decision, not God. So there is no if, it is either or. God's love is realized the minute one accepts what Jesus did for mankind, just as the love I have for the lady is realized once she accepts my love. What Jesus did for mankind was absolutely love. To accept the free gift is not doing much as in an action, the gift contains all the work for forgiveness a work man can never do for himself. In a way it is conditional, that is the decision not the love of God. Man forced the condition He is in and can only correct it through Jesus and to do so is to simply accept what He did for you.

You seem to have left out the more important part of my statement, any reason why other than you have no argument against it. Again no if in that positive statement, it is a fact one you seem oblivious to, that could be a dreadful thing .

And yet again the threats !

Truth is never a threat, it is what it is, truth. Can't you get it through your head that there is no threat other than the one you imagine. Those that see this choice as a threat IMO are afraid and feel it deep down.

I'm speaking of the present and you have jumped to a future possibility,

And yet you bring it up all the time (hell)

I only tell the truth of this situation, hell is a reality whether you want to believe it or not and it is a terrible reality man has made for himself. I just do not know how to make this any clearer. Would you rather I lied to you and tell you there is nothing to fear, that when you die everything will be alright even though you rejected Christ, to do that would prove Christians have no love for their fellow man. If someone knew a building was going to fall on me if I walked down a certain street tomorrow and did not tell me that would be nothing less than murder. However if they tell me and I still do walk that street and am killed by the falling building then the responsibility falls on me.

why, my guess to derail the conversation or show how foolish you are about God.

Yes like I'm foolish about Thor and Odin.

I believe we've pretty much established Thor and Odin are not real. Lost cause on this argument for you.

By the way when arguing against what God says please use the correct terminology. No where in the scriptures is hell described as torture, that is your incorrect interpretation of what hell is.

So if I were to create a place to throw someone (god forbid) into a blazing furnace, a place where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
and  tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,

That does not cut it as torture for you ?

If that were true then it would be torture, however your understanding of hell doesn't seem to account for your unforgiven sin.  First of all no one will be able to see into hell, God says the gulf between hell and anywhere is so great it can never be crossed. Do you think a holy and loving God would allow those who made the choice to accept Jesus as their savior and believe that God will protect them in eternity, would allow anyone to see the suffering those in hell are putting themselves through, not hardly.
You also seem to think that hell is fire and brimstone, if it were then everyone's punishment would be equal and the scriptures tell us that there will be different levels of punishment. Scripture also tells us hell is a dark place, how could it be dark when there's a raging fire going on. Do you not think God explained hell in the way He did because that description is the only way man's mind could fathom the horrors of hell. God allowing you to determine your punishment in hell by the way you live this life is a sure way to insure each person suffers at a different level for the life they lived against Him.
 

I did not start my post with such a misunderstanding, you wanted to read it that way and that is what you got, you have no idea what the conversation was about, you cared only about nonexistent if that you wanted to pertain to conditions and not one of those if were conditional. It's one way or the other with no ifs involved. Me repeating a mantra, your the one obsessed with the if and one that only existed in your mind not my conversation with another. Your whole purpose is to derail a conversation because you did not like what you read, something that wasn't intended for you in the first place. Christians who care will not sugar coat reality, that would be dishonest. So in being honest we are showing our love, do you really believe I would have stayed here this long and not care about those I speak to, unlike you who speaks at people I speak to them, giving them reason to consider. I have no control over what they decide nor the finial destination, that's between them and God, I can only tell people what the Bible says, you know the Word of God.

Yes we know you repeat what you believe scripture to say, your regurgitation of your theology and scripture (which as many different sects of christianty would show) is not the same thing at all, I'm willing to grant that you believe because you believe, I'm really asking why we should?

Regurgitation would mean I have not digested scripture and though I have much to digest I have certainly digested enough to speak the truth about God and His truths about life. What I have been telling you about God's love is accepted through out all of Christianity, all denominations. You should believe because what I've said is true, of coarse the only way you will know this is to respond to Jesus. I can't and wouldn't make you believe and why, because God want force you to believe either, it's your decision as to whether you want to correct the situation by accepting God's free gift. God loves you enough to leave His glory and live and suffer as a man and then suffer greatly at the hand of man, suffer until it killed Him. He then rose up from the dead to prove to us that eternal life was part of the gift and all we need to do is say yes. It's like this you decide your eternal destination not God and you decide it because as people we are living in sin that we made. God is willing to forgive that sin so completely it's like you had never sinned. Our sin is against God, against who He is, it is in reality rebellion against Him, yet He in all His grace is willing to separate us from our sin as far as the east is from the west. Then there is living in a relationship with the creator of the universe, the One who can reveal all things to us, giving us eternal peace and eternal separation from sin to live an eternal life beyond our understanding. If these are not reasons enough then I guess I have nothing else to explain to you on this subject, if you need more than these things you are wanting in a selfish way and must believe you have no needs. For me I need all that God is offering and will be grateful when I receive any of it.
 

 I have been honest and made good points from a reasonable position about God's love for a person who has questioned that love, you never addressed the theme of the conversation and did your best to eliminate the real subject with all your ifs. Your blindness of the scriptures and Jesus may cost you in the future, this is no threat, only you can pay the cost of rejection, for me Christ has already payed my price and I praise Him for that.

And again *bold mine* the non threat threat !, it's become so ingrained in you that you don't even realise that you are doing it.
I believe that you believe you are being honest, I don't have a problem believing that you believe, any more than I doubt a Muslim, J.W. Buddhist..... etc also believes.   I'm asking for a good reason for me to believe.

I think you meant the italicized words. It can't be a threat when it is the truth and it is the truth regardless of what you want. I'm telling you what I know to be the truth because I know God to be real and who He says He is, it's as simple as that. I gave you reason enough to believe above and in that I did not mention hell
  I think you meant the italicized words. It can't be a threat when it is the truth and it is truth regardless of what you want. I'm telling what I know to be the truth because I know God is real and He is who He says He is, it is as simple as that. These things are not my truths they are God's and I know God not to be a liar. I gave you reason enough to believe above and in that I did not mention hell. I do not like to use hell as a way to get peoples attention, It is much better to come to God through love than fear and it makes a persons walk and understanding of God easier because one doesn't have to deal with the fear factor until they learn more about God. Unfortunately for me I came to god through fear and it took me much longer to come to understand the love of God and now that I do I try to approach people with His love first and foremost. Nearly every time hell enters a discussion I'm having here an atheist brings it up first. When I'm the one to bring up hell first it's to get someone's attention because I feel they are rejecting all the good about God and the love He has for them. Anyway I've given you the truth and it's now between you and God, if you so choose.

GC

PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

[Succubus]

PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

Physician, heal thyself.

[possibletarian]

[I_am_not_mafia]

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is.

Typical religious binary thinking.

What is Truth?

The only thing it can be is what happens in reality versus what we perceive or think happens.

The best way of determining the nature of reality is the scientific method. And this uses evidence.

Thing is, many things happen differently depending on what environment you are in.

There are very few things that are universally true. For example, the laws of thermodynamics, the speed of light etc

All of these universal truths contradict the existence of an eternal and intelligent god that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and able to love.

[Drich]

[Drich]

because they are not benefits as you see them. they are means to an end another responsibility another 'test' to mke you ready for the next level.

I started my business it was just me and I could even afford to pay my wife part time. so she worked for free off the books. then I was privy to 'lots of benefits' which required lots of works self sacrifice pain and loss. which prompted me for the next level of hard work, pain and loss. and so on it goes. Yes there is benefit, but in the end you know none of this belongs to you and can be ask back at any moment. why because you are a servant, not one being serviced by a genie.

Uhuh, but people from any other religion can report the same benefits. So either god hands them out to people who are even in the wrong religion; or else god isn't involved at all.

you don't know those other religions very well do you?

[Godscreated]

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is.

Typical religious binary thinking.

What is Truth?

The only thing it can be is what happens in reality versus what we perceive or think happens.

The best way of determining the nature of reality is the scientific method. And this uses evidence.

Thing is, many things happen differently depending on what environment you are in.

There are very few things that are universally true. For example, the laws of thermodynamics, the speed of light etc

All of these universal truths contradict the existence of an eternal and intelligent god that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and able to love.

 There are more lies told in the scientific community than one could count and why to promote science as infallible and it's not. Protecting something through lies is disgraceful and in the end makes science look cheap. Nothing that is real science contradict anything about God, so you can just throw that argument out the door, many scientist have tried that argument and then can't dismiss God with their knowledge. There are many truths out side of science that are universal, the world does not revolve around science even though you may believe so. Truth is something that can stand the test of time, unchanging and unchangeable. The ultimate truth is God himself.

GC

---

PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

Physician, heal thyself.

I was answering the post as it was presented and then made a statement that I haven't the time to continue such long posts, but them i would not expect you to be able to understand.

GC