(July 9, 2018 at 9:18 am)SteveII Wrote: No. The flaw in your sentence is that God did not sacrifice an innocent person--GOD took the penalty on himself. A perfect sacrifice, freely given, was sufficient for everyone who wants to claim it.

 

None the less it was a sacrifice of an innocent, there is no way around this. And if god took the penalty on himself that makes it even more stupid that he simply didn't forgive.

If all he effectively did was pay the penalty to himself, how is that meeting the demand of justice? , why all the smoke and mirrors it really is ridiculous.

Quote:Jesus most certainly died--in every sense of the word. A couple of points of clarification:

not as we understand death he didn't no, he knew he would be raised (by himself) to pay the price (to himself) so he could satisfy the laws of himself.

Quote:1. It is impossible for man to atone for his own sin. 
2. So God decided to do so.
3. But in order to atone for man's sin, God had to become a man in order to stand in for us. So, the sacrifice was not simply "symbolic" as you put it. 
4. That means that Jesus was truly human. He was still God, so he was not just merely human. He had a unique dual nature. 
5. His human nature endured life, suffering and death. There is another thing that comes up--God (the Father) turned away from him at the time of his death because he represented the sins of the world. This was apparently a heavy thing to go through. 

Yes we understand the theology even though there is no way to assert it's truth.  People don't have a problem with god forgiving them as a concept but why all the silly sacrifice yourself stuff, he is god after all and he knew nothing was permanent and was in full control of the process throughout.  I mean he even provided himself a way out if the heat got too much.   There is no need for anyone to pay any price and certainly not a god.

Quote:One last point on this. You mention that you "forgive, and it's done". That is not the same thing as what is happening with the Christ's atonement. Christ's atonement does not forgive, it wipes the slate clean--as if it never happened. This is an important distinction in systematic theology that few ever take note of. 

Great so why didn't god simply do that without all the melodrama ? I know you think it makes sense, hell I used to even, but really it's just man made silliness. There is no evidence anywhere to make believing that humans were ever without error and or sin a sensible thing to believe.

Why would a god who made the universe and made the potential for whatever sin is, be then unable to handle it ? it's just plain bonkers.
Words like 'holiness' and 'sin' are simply as excuse to explain why  a god is indistinguishable to no god.
It gives god an opt out on serious interaction with his creation I really cannot understand why i believed this stuff.

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(July 9, 2018 at 9:39 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: So an entity who created the whole universe and everything in it has to sacrifice himself to himself because in the end he's nothing but an idiot.  Just about all of the other thousands of silly religious fairy tales make more sense than the biblical one.

It really is fucking stupid isn't it !

Sin = eating lobster and tuna, wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, not observing certain holidays, eating four-legged flying animals. God gotta crucify himself to himself.

(July 9, 2018 at 9:39 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(July 9, 2018 at 9:18 am)SteveII Wrote: No. The flaw in your sentence is that God did not sacrifice an innocent person--GOD took the penalty on himself. A perfect sacrifice, freely given, was sufficient for everyone who wants to claim it.

 

None the less it was a sacrifice of an innocent, there is no way around this. And if god took the penalty on himself that makes it even more stupid that he simply didn't forgive.

If all he effectively did was pay the penalty to himself, how is that meeting the demand of justice? , why all the smoke and mirrors it really is ridiculous.

Quote:Jesus most certainly died--in every sense of the word. A couple of points of clarification:

not as we understand death he didn't no, he knew he would be raised (by himself) to pay the price (to himself) so he could satisfy the laws of himself.

Quote:1. It is impossible for man to atone for his own sin. 
2. So God decided to do so.
3. But in order to atone for man's sin, God had to become a man in order to stand in for us. So, the sacrifice was not simply "symbolic" as you put it. 
4. That means that Jesus was truly human. He was still God, so he was not just merely human. He had a unique dual nature. 
5. His human nature endured life, suffering and death. There is another thing that comes up--God (the Father) turned away from him at the time of his death because he represented the sins of the world. This was apparently a heavy thing to go through. 

Yes we understand the theology even though there is no way to assert it's truth.  People don't have a problem with god forgiving them as a concept but why all the silly sacrifice yourself stuff, he is god after all and he knew nothing was permanent and was in full control of the process throughout.  I mean he even provided himself a way out if the heat got too much.   There is no need for anyone to pay any price and certainly not a god.

Quote:One last point on this. You mention that you "forgive, and it's done". That is not the same thing as what is happening with the Christ's atonement. Christ's atonement does not forgive, it wipes the slate clean--as if it never happened. This is an important distinction in systematic theology that few ever take note of. 

Great so why didn't god simply do that without all the melodrama ? I know you think it makes sense, hell I used to even, but really it's just man made silliness. There is no evidence anywhere to make believing that humans were ever without error and or sin a sensible thing to believe.

Why would a god who made the universe and made the potential for whatever sin is, be then unable to handle it ? it's just plain bonkers.
Words like 'holiness' and 'sin' are simply as excuse to explain why  a god is indistinguishable to no god.
It gives god an opt out on serious interaction with his creation I really cannot understand why i believed this stuff.

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(July 9, 2018 at 9:39 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: So an entity who created the whole universe and everything in it has to sacrifice himself to himself because in the end he's nothing but an idiot.  Just about all of the other thousands of silly religious fairy tales make more sense than the biblical one.

It really is fucking stupid isn't it !

I truly regret wasting the time. It won't happen again.

Rubbing two sticks together on a Sabbath = Death
Raping a virgin = Marry her

You couldn't make this stu...... ohh hang on.

(July 9, 2018 at 12:16 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 5, 2018 at 10:17 am)possibletarian Wrote: You mean the bible right, the indoctrination document ?

For this conversation yes, the document of truth.

Scared of the truth?  The truth of what..that you;re complete ass with sick fantasies?  Have you ever considered the possibility that you;re far less menacing than you think you are when you say that silly shit? That instead of scaring people to jesus....you;re confirming your own fears and base inadequacy? Do you find yourself threatening other people often..in life..or just here? Is it something you do out of frustration, or just for fun? Do you imagine that you;re the first and only person who;s ever threatened anyone else with that particular line...that...just maybe, people are waiting to hear you say it to them?

LOL, fucking moron.

(July 9, 2018 at 6:47 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(July 9, 2018 at 12:16 am)Godscreated Wrote:  You understand what Steve II has been telling you you just do not want to believe it's true,

That's a bit like me saying you don't want the stories or nature of Superman, Allah, Zeus etc  to be true, there is absolutely no good reason to believe that your god exists, or that any attendant theology is true.  

Quote:you're afraid.

I thought we had been over this, I'm not afraid of anything there is no good reason to believe is true.

Quote:God's God's holiness and justice are who He is and they must be satisfied

No god's holiness, justice or whatever other attribute's you choose to give him are simply you ascribe to explain why god is exactly the same as no god. With those attributes you don't even have to explain why there is no evidence.. why, well he's simply too holy.

Quote:just as hunger is part of who you are and must be satisfied.

No that's simply stupid,
1) you can demonstrate hunger what happens to the body when you don't eat
2) you can show the person who is hungry in any particular case exists.
In other words it's not a made up nebulous excuse to explain why god is exactly the same as no god

Quote:I explained to you earlier in this thread that God did not sacrifice Jesus, the Son of God volunteered, something He did not have to do, but as per you you've conveniently forgotten so you can continue to disrupt conversation.

Really, i would say i'm engaging in a real way, and without threatening a single person with a gory everlasting death, which i can't prove.  If you don't have adequate answer to the questions, simply say that you don't know.

And even if jesus volunteered for a none death (which was the punishment, he was never really going to not live again), then how is that justice. The innocent suffering can never be called justice, that's just plain stupid.  And if god can take a none guilty life then he's already broken his own rules of justice.  So again if you are going to break your own rules, why not simply forgive.

Quote:By the way if Jesus did not raise from the dead we would have no hope of eternal life, through His resurrection God proved to us that it is possible to be raised from the dead into eternal life.

Hate to break this to you, but there is no good reason to believe any of that is true.

Quote:Christ's death was sufficient to pay the price, it was His sinless life that made Jesus the perfect sacrifice.

It does not meet the requirements the first part of justice even, that the guilty be punished not the innocent. The thing is GC it's not just the detail of your faith that is so silly, it's the whole thing. The thought of the master of the universe( add in many glorious titles here) having to sacrifice anyone or anything because he can't handle someone misbehaving is unbelievable beyond measure.

Quote:The truth is your so childish that you can't learn from conversations with Christians, what we tell you is truth, but you are not required to accept it as part of your life, unless you want your life to be a pleasant one for eternity.

I've pre-ordered the petrol and matches on amazon.. delivery wont even cost me anything.

Listen GC, you claim to have 'studied' the truth and science and that makes it worse, the fact you claim this then claim a young earth and a flood and other biblical related nonsense makes me really fear for you, please get some help before it's too late and you waste your whole life.

Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent—the Lord detests them both.
Proverbs 17:15

 
 Like Steve II I'm done with you, it's your life for now it will be different in the future.

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(July 10, 2018 at 1:00 am)Khemikal Wrote: Scared of the truth?  The truth of what..that you;re complete ass with sick fantasies?  Have you ever considered the possibility that you;re far less menacing than you think you are when you say that silly shit?

I am not trying to be menacing, it's your doubt that leads you to believe such, the truth has a way of getting in doesn't it. Don't bother to reply I want need to answer something you make up, we both know the truth and that's enough for me.

GC

Fucking....moron.......

Quote:I am not trying to be menacing, it's your doubt that leads you to believe such, the truth has a way of getting in doesn't it. Don't bother to reply I want need to answer something you make up, we both know the truth and that's enough for me.