Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  

Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  

(July 12, 2018 at 4:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  

---

-Mark

Quote:The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, “Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest.”
32 So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. 33 But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.
35 By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. “This is a remote place,” they said, “and it’s already very late. 36 Send the people away so that they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.”
37 But he answered, “You give them something to eat.”
They said to him, “That would take more than half a year’s wages[a]! Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat?”
38 “How many loaves do you have?” he asked. “Go and see.”
When they found out, they said, “Five—and two fish.”
39 Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. 40 So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties.41 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all.42 They all ate and were satisfied, 43 and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44 The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand.

-Matthew

Quote:13 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

15 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”

16 Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”

17 “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.
18 “Bring them here to me,” he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.

Luke

Quote:10 When the apostles returned, they reported to Jesus what they had done. Then he took them with him and they withdrew by themselves to a town called Bethsaida, 11 but the crowds learned about it and followed him. He welcomed them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God,and healed those who needed healing.

12 Late in the afternoon the Twelve came to him and said, “Send the crowd away so they can go to the surrounding villages and countryside and find food and lodging, because we are in a remote place here.”

13 He replied, “You give them something to eat.”

They answered, “We have only five loaves of bread and two fish—unless we go and buy food for all this crowd.” 14 (About five thousand men were there.)
But he said to his disciples, “Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each.” 15 The disciples did so, and everyone sat down. 16 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke them. Then he gave them to the disciples to distribute to the people. 17 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.

-John

Quote:6 Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3 Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4 The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

5 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages[a] to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up,9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there).11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.
14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

---

Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  

I don't know about a theological message, but it is reporting a miracle by Jesus.  That people saw the sign, and believed that he was God.   Jesus often pointed people to the signs and what he had done, what they had seen.

Quote:John 5:36
But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.”
John 10:37–38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Acts 1:2–3
… until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/jes...ase-maker/

(July 12, 2018 at 10:58 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(July 10, 2018 at 1:10 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: A silence may raise questions, or cause one to take notice, and look for a more substantial case. However, unless you can make a valid case for the argument from silence, you can’t just make things up, and insert them into the silence. It can be done, but the argument from silence (legitimate) isn’t an easy case to make.

There is no contemporary evidence that any of your horseshit is true.  Since it is YOUR HORSESHIT you bear the burden of proof.  Feel free to call us if you find something, in the meanwhile go blow your apologetics out your ass.

Once again we see RR expounding the Great Xtian Paradox:  "Jesus was so fucking dangerous and important that the authorities had no choice but to break every rule in their own fucking book to deal with him while, AT THE VERY SAME TIME, he was so fucking insignificant that no one in the first century wrote a fucking word about him.

Make up your fucking minds, assholes.

Jesus' sentencing has always been unique. But this is the first place I'm hearing an argument that a Roman prefect would not do what Pilate is depicted doing in the Gospel accounts. Can you elaborate on this a bit?

---

(July 12, 2018 at 4:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  

---

-Mark

Quote:The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, “Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest.”
32 So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. 33 But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.
35 By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. “This is a remote place,” they said, “and it’s already very late. 36 Send the people away so that they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.”
37 But he answered, “You give them something to eat.”
They said to him, “That would take more than half a year’s wages[a]! Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat?”
38 “How many loaves do you have?” he asked. “Go and see.”
When they found out, they said, “Five—and two fish.”
39 Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. 40 So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties.41 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all.42 They all ate and were satisfied, 43 and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44 The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand.

-Matthew

Quote:13 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

15 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”

16 Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”

17 “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.
18 “Bring them here to me,” he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.

Luke

Quote:10 When the apostles returned, they reported to Jesus what they had done. Then he took them with him and they withdrew by themselves to a town called Bethsaida, 11 but the crowds learned about it and followed him. He welcomed them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God,and healed those who needed healing.

12 Late in the afternoon the Twelve came to him and said, “Send the crowd away so they can go to the surrounding villages and countryside and find food and lodging, because we are in a remote place here.”

13 He replied, “You give them something to eat.”

They answered, “We have only five loaves of bread and two fish—unless we go and buy food for all this crowd.” 14 (About five thousand men were there.)
But he said to his disciples, “Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each.” 15 The disciples did so, and everyone sat down. 16 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke them. Then he gave them to the disciples to distribute to the people. 17 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.

-John

Quote:6 Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3 Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4 The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

5 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages[a] to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up,9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there).11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.
14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

---

Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  

The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.

(July 12, 2018 at 4:45 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(July 12, 2018 at 4:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  

---

-Mark

-Matthew

Luke

-John

---

Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  

I don't know about a theological message, but it is reporting a miracle by Jesus.  That people saw the sign, and believed that he was God.   Jesus often pointed people to the signs and what he had done, what they had seen.

Quote:John 5:36
But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.”
John 10:37–38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Acts 1:2–3
… until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/jes...ase-maker/

..........................................  

Apparently, I have the gift of prophecy. 

Quote:You have a compelling need to exclaim "its twoo, it;s twoo, it;s twoo" in every possible variation of the phrase....and that means that you'll never actually get around to discussing the mythicist position. That the character of christ found in the NT was constructed specifically as a vehicle for theology.

Bear in mind, while we both agree there is a clear theological message there, we part ways beyond that point to our conclusions. In other words I do not take that as proof of fabrication of a story, but rather a very specific lesson and example in something I believe to have actually taken place that I should take heed of in my own faith as such situations might apply today.

(July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.

Good thing you;re here, lol!

We don;t have to go on reading to see the importance of the stories.  Firstly, it echoes earlier narratives ( exodus 16, 2 kings, psalm 132).....many pages of ink could be spilled and have been spilled on this one, but it reminds us that god is not finite.  He can provide in abundance, in excess of our expectations or resources.  Superficially, food...but perhaps more deeply n overabundance of spiritual sustenance.  The crowds gathered weren;t even believers.  They were there for healings, not to worship god.  

I do think it;s amusing, in the narrative (pursuant to your comment about faith above) that all four narratives show that the disciples..for some reason...doubted the miracle man even though they;d seen him perform mirales before and were..in effect, at an all day miracle road show even in the story.  The chorus stops and says "but how?".

The numbers..if you;re referring to 5k..might be incidental (it;s just alot of people...a miraculous number!).  It wouldn;t have been a full accounting even if it were true..women and children weren;t counted..but the gospel writer most empathetic to women and children generally does see fit to include their mention..at least.  John goes so far as to have the bread offered by a little boy.  More on that in a minute.

The number of broken pieces in the basket, reported by all four, however, has not been lost to us.  Each narrative has the disciples gathering 12 baskets full of broken pieces.  Alluding to the notion that the apostles will gather the twelve broken tribes.  Speaking of the apostles, jesus doesn;t distribute this food himself, or wiggle his nose and suddenly everyone has food or doesn;t need it.  He hands it to them to distribute.  What they have comes from god, and they can only give what they get.  

Now back to those details...both how they agree and how they differ.  I arranged them chronologically.  Mark comes first, then mathew, then luke, then john.  Mathew and lukle were largely based on mark..john does his own thing..and it shows.  Mark and matthew both say that there were already crows gathered when jesus retired.  Luke has him welcoming people (luke was a softy).  John has godman going right up the motherfucking mountain, lol!

Then, ofc, John has a bit extra that conforms to his unique style.  A pronouncement from the people that he is definitely the messiah..and how they were all going to make him king..by force.  

So...regarding the theological oimportance of the bits above...are the minor disparities between accounts all that important?  Is this a vehicle to recount the mundane details..or the message of god?  Can we notice how each author alters the narrative thrust in order to satisfy what we have determined to be their unique proclivities?

My conclusion™ btw..is the conclusion of christian scholarship. That this is a proficient and well polished parable. I;m sure we don;t disagree there. You may believe its twoo, twoo, twoo like our unfortunate friend RR, but that;s irrelevant to me.

(July 12, 2018 at 4:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote: ..........................................  

Apparently, I have the gift of prophecy. 

Quote:You have a compelling need to exclaim "its twoo, it;s twoo, it;s twoo" in every possible variation of the phrase....and that means that you'll never actually get around to discussing the mythicist position. That the character of christ found in the NT was constructed specifically as a vehicle for theology.

I wouldn't consider that highly theological (at least not in the way I think you are using it).  But it could be considered a part of systematic theology in the study of the text, and tying common things together.

Because there is some significance to the event doesn't mean that it is a myth (not even close).   The signing of the declaration of the independence had a lot of significance. Do you think that act is a myth?
I find that it is often the significant things that get recorded, although the gospels also contain a lot of little details that may not have a large overall importance.   I had posted a while ago, about a book on un-designed coincidences.  Where insignificant things or things that left a question in one account where explained or made more sense when combined with another.

Are you going to answer the question of "how you know that", or is this just going to be all chest thumping and you proclaiming what you imagine I'll say;   to dodge the question.

I am answering the question..in detail.  Would you like to participate now?  Do you think you can stuff your cold case shit long enough to appreciate the work of the authors of your own precious stories, lol?

(July 12, 2018 at 5:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.

Good thing you;re here, lol!

We don;t have to go on reading to see the importance of the stories.  Firstly, it echoes earlier narratives ( exodus 16, 2 kings, psalm 132).....many pages of ink could be spilled and have been spilled on this one, but it reminds us that god is not finite.  He can provide in abundance, in excess of our expectations or resources.  Superficially, food...but perhaps more deeply n overabundance of spiritual sustenance.  The crowds gathered weren;t even believers.  They were there for healings, not to worship god.  

I do think it;s amusing, in the narrative (pursuant to your comment about faith above) that all four narratives show that the disciples..for some reason...doubted the miracle man even though they;d seen him perform mirales before and were..in effect, at an all day miracle road show even in the story.  The chorus stops and says "but how?".

The numbers..if you;re referring to 5k..might be incidental (it;s just alot of people...a miraculous number!).  It wouldn;t have been a full accounting even if it were true..women and children weren;t counted..but the gospel writer most empathetic to women and children generally does see fit to include their mention..at least.  John goes so far as to have the bread offered by a little boy.  More on that in a minute.

The number of broken pieces in the basket, reported by all four, however, has not been lost to us.  Each narrative has the disciples gathering 12 baskets full of broken pieces.  Alluding to the notion that the apostles will gather the twelve broken tribes.  Speaking of the apostles, jesus doesn;t distribute this food himself, or wiggle his nose and suddenly everyone has food or doesn;t need it.  He hands it to them to distribute.  What they have comes from god, and they can only give what they get.  

Now back to those details...both how they agree and how they differ.  I arranged them chronologically.  Mark comes first, then mathew, then luke, then john.  Mathew and lukle were largely based on mark..john does his own thing..and it shows.  Mark and matthew both say that there were already crows gathered when jesus retired.  Luke has him welcoming people (luke was a softy).  John has godman going right up the motherfucking mountain, lol!

Then, ofc, John has a bit extra that conforms to his unique style.  A pronouncement from the people that he is definitely the messiah..and how they were all going to make him king..by force.  

So...regarding the theological oimportance of the bits above...are the minor disparities between accounts all that important?  Is this a vehicle to recount the mundane details..or the message of god?  Can we notice how each author alters the central character in order to satisfy what we have determined to be their unique proclivities?

My conclusion™ btw..is the conclusion of christian scholarship. That this is a proficient and well polished parable. I;m sure we don;t disagree there. You may believe its twoo, twoo, twoo like our unfortunate friend RR, but that;s irrelevant to me.

We can totally notice this, and that's ok. I think of it like a theological equivalent to 'poetic liscence'. Four different theological imprints from four memories (passed down from the disciples) of the same events. That is how I see it at least.

(July 12, 2018 at 5:15 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I am answering the question..in detail.  Would you like to participate now?  Do you think you can stuff your cold case shit long enough to appreciate the work of the authors of your own precious stories, lol?

He will cling to his Cop till the end because it's all he's got and what he's got is unimpressive to say the least