Quote:Gun laws have shown to have little affect on homicide rates. 

And your solution is no laws at all good luck with that .

Quote:And the largest portion of gun deaths is suicides.

That's still a gun violence issue

(July 12, 2018 at 6:43 pm)Aegon Wrote:

(July 12, 2018 at 5:19 pm)Kit Wrote: Vehicular attacks are becoming the new norm. Sad.

Guns rights advocates will use it as an excuse. "See, they'll use anything! They're sick!" As if the amount of vehicular killings could ever come close to the amount easily killed by firearms. Such a non sequitur.

Well if you grouped it like the misleading gun deaths stat, then they already are.

I never said that I wasn’t for any laws at all.  

And suicide is a problem with or without guns.

(July 12, 2018 at 10:00 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:Gun laws have shown to have little affect on homicide rates. 

And your solution is no laws at all good luck with that .

Quote:And the largest portion of gun deaths is suicides.

That's still a gun violence issue

No it's not. It's a mental health issue. What evidence do you have that a gun ban in any country has reduced the suicide rate there?! None. I mean, how easily guns make murder is a real problem. Pretending that gun deaths by suicide should be grouped with them in the same statistic is lunacy.

It's done for 100% propaganda purposes.

Quote:No it's not. It's a mental health issue. 

Nope it's still a gun issue shifting it over to mental illness is another distraction 

Quote:What evidence do you have that a gun ban in any country has reduced the suicide rate there?! None. 

Did i make that claim? and what evidence is their that doing nothing about guns will help ?

Quote:I mean, how easily guns make murder is a real problem.

It is a problem so is gun violence by suicide 

Quote: Pretending that gun deaths by suicide should be grouped with them in the same statistic is lunacy.

Nope it's still violence by guns 

Quote:It's done for 100% propaganda purpose

No denying it is and trying to shift the focus is

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Quote:I never said that I wasn’t for any laws at all.  

You said laws generalized

Quote:And suicide is a problem with or without guns.

But in the context of using a gun it is a gun violence issue

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Quote:Well if you grouped it like the misleading gun deaths stat, then they already are.

Too bad it's misleading and is still gun violence

Is taking some pills and settling into a nice warm tub pill violence? Or is it, more accurately..scented bath salt violence?  Is hanging yourself in your closet rope violence?

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I can agree, btw, that guns and cars should be handled similarly.  That wont actually cause a blip to gun violence.  Mostly..because the people who plan to engage in gun violence wouldn;t take that test anymore than they actually get a license before driving a car...and those that would would pass anyway (and still be prone to shooting their spouse in a fit of jealous rage).

The only solution to our gun problem is to get cheap handguns off the streets. We know this..we;ve known it for decades..but it;s expensive..both in terms of cold hard american dollars and political capital. So we do nothing while endeavouring to look very...very busy.

(July 12, 2018 at 11:28 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Is taking some pills and settling into a nice warm tub pill violence? Or is it, more accurately..scented bath salt violence?  Is hanging yourself in your closet rope violence?

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I can agree, btw, that guns and cars should be handled similarly.  That wont actually cause a blip to gun violence.  Mostly..because the people who plan to engage in gun violence wouldn;t take that test anymore than they actually get a license before driving a car...and those that would would pass anyway (and still be prone to shooting their spouse in a fit of jealous rage).

The only solution to our gun problem is to get cheap handguns off the streets.

The answer to all they above is yes those are forms of violence as is shooting yourself and that is a gun violence issue .

As for whether a criminal does something or not is not relevant to why we have laws .

You call them all violence, and hey..you can use the word how you like, but that won;t change that theres a difference between the acts.  Because of this, some of us prefer to use terminology with clear demarcation in the interest of accuracy.  If I talk to you about gun violence, I;m talking about a firefight or people shooting some place up.

People shooting themselves with guns..cant fault em, and they;re certainly not what I would consider violent people.  Guns are effective in ways that pills commonly arent..and hanging.  Fuck.  That has to be the worst.  Most people don;t give themselves enough fall...so they end up strangling themselves to death instead of breaking their necks.  That has to be the worst way to go.  I can guarantee that no person who has ever strangled themselve's to death went into it like a calf.  Its the one way to do it that effectively garantees tyhat you have a hellish minute or more of regret while you die.

Its true that even though we know that criminals will break laws we still see fit to make them..but if the purpose of a law is to prevent gun violence..yes we know people will break it and thats not a good reason -not- to make it...but will it be effective at preventing gun violence? That is a good reason to make or not make the law. Some types opf laws actually would prevent gun violence. A license just isn;t one of them..though it;s a good idea from an incompetence standpoint. Accidental shootings are actually a vanishingly small portion of our gun problem..and most aren;t lethal.

(July 12, 2018 at 11:41 pm)Khemikal Wrote: You call them all violence, and hey..you can use the word how you like, but that won;t change that theres a difference between the acts.  Because of this, some of us prefer to use terminology with clear demarcation in the interest of accuracy.  If I talk to you about gun violence, I;m talking about a firefight or people shooting some place up.

People shooting themselves with guns..cant fault em, and they;re certainly not what I would consider violent people.  Guns are effective in ways that pills commonly arent..and hanging.  Fuck.  That has to be the worst.  Most people don;t give themselves enough fall...so they end up strangling themselves to death instead of breaking their necks.  That has to be the worst way to go.  I can guarantee that no person who has ever strangled themselve's to death went into it like a calf.  Its the one way to do it that effectively garantees tyhat you have a hellish minute or more of regret while you die.

No there isn't really one is killing someone else  the other is killing yourself either way it's an act of violence with the gun being used as a tool of death just like pills or a rope .Oh suicide is awful i have treated people who have attempted it i also have treated people who have murdered people my sympathy is to them both despite the violence .

Mental health funding would be a better way to prevent non violent gun death than gun laws would.  Both solutions have actual costs and practical necessities....so, if it;s suicide you want to prevent, spend the money preventing suicide rather than preventing gun violence.

Right?

Now, we can do both...but do you really think that suicide prevention and gang interdiction could both be best handled by the same laws or strategy? Hell, would you even want to combine their funding dependencies? I wouldn;t. I know how our government works, lol.

Wanna stop suicides by gun? Make mental health checkups part of everyones safety net. There go six of every ten shootings, potentially. Wanna prevent violent shootings? Targeted buybacks, downright surgical sale prohibitions, and the de-armament of police. Three of ten. Independant programs, independant funding, so that someone grinding an axe on either won;t hit them both at once.

That last one of ten? Hammer people who leave their guns loaded on the nightstand to the fullest extent of existing law..like you would if somebody just flat drove their car into some other guys house.

Voila, gun problem in america solved.