Quote:I raise no force fields. I encourage thorough examination of all my beliefs, and I'm always prepared to change them.

Spot on.  Someone has said (can't be arsed to source it) that science is questions that must be answered, but religion is answers that must not be questioned.

But I think you may be onto something, rob - since religious belief is protected by law, that seems to make it rather impolitic to term such belief 'delusions', no matter how nutty they seem.

Boru

(August 31, 2018 at 10:11 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I don't think most of us are stating that the religious delusion being discussed are clinical/medical. There are all types of delusions (mostly fantasy) that don't meet the "clinical" criteria.

So religious people are not crazy, they just believe in crazy stuff.

(September 1, 2018 at 5:32 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:I raise no force fields. I encourage thorough examination of all my beliefs, and I'm always prepared to change them.

Spot on.  Someone has said (can't be arsed to source it) that science is questions that must be answered, but religion is answers that must not be questioned.

But I think you may be onto something, rob - since religious belief is protected by law, that seems to make it rather impolitic to term such belief 'delusions', no matter how nutty they seem.

Boru

That's a good point.

It's a strange situation. My belief should be protected by law because I say it's a religious belief. How is that different from saying my belief should be protected by law because I say so? I wonder how the law itself would decide what is and isn't allowed.

To the OP:

I was thinking from the beginning of your thread, from the title, of your thread, that atheism would be included in religious beliefs (beliefs concerning religion). Although the context of your questions points to a specific claim by some. These threads have been somewhat enlightening, and I’m seeing a disconnect from reality in some things that are claimed.

It’s also interesting, that most are ignoring the questions, and just taking the opportunity to demean others and call them delusional.

(August 31, 2018 at 10:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Well then, are you differentiating between the theist simply being wrong and being delusional?

Nope, I'm saying they are both. The same as people who believe in aliens, ghosts or witch craft. They don't necessarily meet the clinical definition either yet are wrong and delusional. 

If the religious take offense and get butt hurt when I use terms like delusion(al) or fantasy that's their issue, not mine.

(September 1, 2018 at 6:49 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: To the OP:

I was thinking from the beginning of your thread, from the title, of your thread, that atheism would be included in religious beliefs (beliefs concerning religion). Although the context of your questions points to a specific claim by some.   These threads have been somewhat enlightening, and I’m seeing a disconnect from reality in some things that are claimed.  

It’s also interesting, that most are ignoring the questions, and just taking the opportunity to demean others and call them delusional.

Almost every single person in this thread has done the opposite. Rather than use the blanket label, they are trying to determine what labels actually fits and why.  People are questioning different definitions of multiple terms, questioning why labels are applied in the first place, and why some are exempted from labels, and so forth.  You simply do not like the majority of the conclusions (even though many different conclusions have been reached by the different participants of this thread).

Christian persecution complex is an ugly thing, and it does not suit you.

I can't even begin the address everything wrong with your first paragraph, so I'll leave that to leveler heads than mine.
P.s.  After looking into it more, I can now recognize this entire reply by you to be passive aggressive.  It avoids directing any of the arguments made and it sideways insults the participants (more than once), but in a really subtle way.

(September 1, 2018 at 5:46 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(August 31, 2018 at 10:11 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I don't think most of us are stating that the religious delusion being discussed are clinical/medical. There are all types of delusions (mostly fantasy) that don't meet the "clinical" criteria.

So religious people are not crazy, they just believe in crazy stuff.

Cra Cra definitely has a clinical/medical tone. I don't use it much when talking to the religious.

(September 1, 2018 at 5:17 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It seems to me that strictly religious beliefs get a pass when it comes to being delusional.  One man believes that a Jewish carpenter was actually the son of God with power to cure leprosy, blindness, death, calm storms, wither fig trees, cast out demons and so forth.  A second man believes that leprechauns are real and have the power to grant wishes, bestow wealth and magically repair shoes.

Why are the latter beliefs adjudged to be delusional and not the former?

Boru

I think the answer probably goes back to what Mr Agenda was saying about the manner in which the beliefs were come by. For the Christian the beliefs are served up unquestioningly by his parents and his entire community. The beliefs are woven into how they express feelings for one another and celebrate passages and holidays. As he says there, when he stopped believing in the theology he didn't realize he'd been delusional before, just mistaken.

Of course we all know you don't need the xtian secret sauce to take part in a community, but it might well seem that way when you've been served the koolade since birth.

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(September 1, 2018 at 6:49 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: It’s also interesting, that most are ignoring the questions, and just taking the opportunity to demean others and call them delusional.

You're welcome.  

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(September 1, 2018 at 6:59 am)Aroura Wrote:

(September 1, 2018 at 6:49 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I was thinking from the beginning of your thread, from the title, of your thread, that atheism would be included in religious beliefs (beliefs concerning religion). Although the context of your questions points to a specific claim by some.   These threads have been somewhat enlightening, and I’m seeing a disconnect from reality in some things that are claimed.  

I can't even begin the address everything wrong with your first paragraph, so I'll leave that to leveler heads than mine.
P.s.  After looking into it more, I can now recognize this entire reply by you to be passive aggressive.  It avoids directing any of the arguments made and it sideways insults the participants (more than once), but in a really subtle way.

I skipped that part too.  Lets take a look: "atheism would be included in religious beliefs (beliefs concerning religion)".  Okay, true enough, beliefs atheists hold about religion do concern religion.  But whatever beliefs those may be are still extraneous to what makes us atheists which is our failing to be convinced by claims made by theists.  That we should acquire beliefs concerning religion is hardly surprising.  It is human nature to seek to understand our world and whether or not we participate in it, religion is very obviously in our world.  Personally I find it interesting, not as a hobby I'd like to take up myself, but as an interesting wrinkle in human nature.

Atheism is related to religion only in the sense that it disbelieves the claims of religion on the grounds they are unsupported. Any study or look into religion is merely in it's opposition to it's lack of support ,It's tendency toward sectarian oppression , or it's tendency toward anti intellectualism.

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(September 1, 2018 at 7:45 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(September 1, 2018 at 5:17 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It seems to me that strictly religious beliefs get a pass when it comes to being delusional.  One man believes that a Jewish carpenter was actually the son of God with power to cure leprosy, blindness, death, calm storms, wither fig trees, cast out demons and so forth.  A second man believes that leprechauns are real and have the power to grant wishes, bestow wealth and magically repair shoes.

Why are the latter beliefs adjudged to be delusional and not the former?

Boru

I think the answer probably goes back to what Mr Agenda was saying about the manner in which the beliefs were come by.  For the Christian the beliefs are served up unquestioningly by his parents and his entire community.  The beliefs are woven into how they express feelings for one another and celebrate passages and holidays.  As he says there, when he stopped believing in the theology he didn't realize he'd been delusional before, just mistaken.

Of course we all know you don't need the xtian secret sauce to take part in a community, but it might well seem that way when you've been served the koolade since birth.

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(September 1, 2018 at 6:49 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: It’s also interesting, that most are ignoring the questions, and just taking the opportunity to demean others and call them delusional.

You're welcome.  

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Ha ha.  

But you've got to expect some mistreatment coming to a forums where most of the people attracted have left religion, and in many cases are shunned to some degree by those communities.

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(September 1, 2018 at 6:59 am)Aroura Wrote: I can't even begin the address everything wrong with your first paragraph, so I'll leave that to leveler heads than mine.
P.s.  After looking into it more, I can now recognize this entire reply by you to be passive aggressive.  It avoids directing any of the arguments made and it sideways insults the participants (more than once), but in a really subtle way.

I skipped that part too.  Lets take a look: "atheism would be included in religious beliefs (beliefs concerning religion)".  Okay, true enough, beliefs atheists hold about religion do concern religion.  But whatever beliefs those may be are still extraneous to what makes us atheists which is our failing to be convinced by claims made by theists.  That we should acquire beliefs concerning religion is hardly surprising.  It is human nature to seek to understand our world and whether or not we participate in it, religion is very obviously in our world.  Personally I find it interesting, not as a hobby I'd like to take up myself, but as an interesting wrinkle in human nature.

Careful What they will accuse you of subjectivism and insist you can't judge other peoples belief in god ...

(September 1, 2018 at 6:59 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 31, 2018 at 10:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Well then, are you differentiating between the theist simply being wrong and being delusional?

Nope, I'm saying they are both. The same as people who believe in aliens, ghosts or witch craft. They don't necessarily meet the clinical definition either yet are wrong and delusional. 

That doesn't really answer the question. They can be both and both are the same, or they can be both and yet being delusional entails something more than simply being wrong. If it's the latter, then what is that something more that makes a person delusional? If not, why use a term that is perceived as insulting when there is a non-insulting synonym?