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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 11:56 am
(September 28, 2018 at 11:29 am)polymath257 Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 11:12 am)SteveII Wrote: Why use the word 'virtues'. That is a moral term and the wrong word because it only applies to a very small list of moral subcategories. We are talking about properties of a person. Is that your problem all along?
To be brave requires one to act in spite of fear. Do you really think God fears anything? Respect requires admiration. Do you think God admires anyone? I think you imagine a thousand moral terms and can't make sense of them all. Don't.
No, that was NOT my problem. In fact, if you are talking all properties of a person, it is very far from being obvious that there is a meaning for 'more or less' even for specific properties.
And the fact that I can imagine a thousand terms is *precisely* why you need to be more specific about *which* ones are being used to demonstrate the existence of a deity. Without more specifics, I cannot know why God cannot fear, or admire. Both bravery and respect seem to be very good qualities. So if God is maximally good, He should have both. The fact that this causes *you* problems is part of my claim that your whole argument is flawed.
Umm, bravery and respect are not possible for God to have. Possible was the very first concept brought up on this topic. There, imagined problem solved. Your entire last paragraph is about epistemology again and not ontology. We don't need to know what mix of properties is greater. You have failed over and over to even come close to illustrating your contention that is is not possible to a have a maximally great being. You only bring up confusion as to how would we know: epistemology--which is not a concern at all.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 12:03 pm
(This post was last modified: September 28, 2018 at 12:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
God can't possibly possess bravery or respect? Well..shit..that tanks this whole greatest possible being garbage all by itself.
At least other beings might possibly be brave, or have respect...even if they don't actually possess much of either...and potential counts, right.....?
Fuuuuck.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 12:25 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 11:56 am)SteveII Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 11:29 am)polymath257 Wrote: No, that was NOT my problem. In fact, if you are talking all properties of a person, it is very far from being obvious that there is a meaning for 'more or less' even for specific properties.
And the fact that I can imagine a thousand terms is *precisely* why you need to be more specific about *which* ones are being used to demonstrate the existence of a deity. Without more specifics, I cannot know why God cannot fear, or admire. Both bravery and respect seem to be very good qualities. So if God is maximally good, He should have both. The fact that this causes *you* problems is part of my claim that your whole argument is flawed.
Umm, bravery and respect are not possible for God to have. Possible was the very first concept brought up on this topic. There, imagined problem solved. Your entire last paragraph is about epistemology again and not ontology. We don't need to know what mix of properties is greater. You have failed over and over to even come close to illustrating your contention that is is not possible to a have a maximally great being. You only bring up confusion as to how would we know: epistemology--which is not a concern at all.
Really? Why is it not *possible* for God to have those properties? or are you assuming God has *other* properties that contradict those? Which is exactly my point: you have to pick and choose which properties you are wanting in a deity in order to show they are mutually consistent.
And *than* you* have to show a common maximum for all of the ones you choose it possible.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 12:27 pm
Or he can just keep telling us all of the shit his great fairy can't do and doesn't have.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 12:40 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 12:25 pm)polymath257 Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 11:56 am)SteveII Wrote: Umm, bravery and respect are not possible for God to have. Possible was the very first concept brought up on this topic. There, imagined problem solved. Your entire last paragraph is about epistemology again and not ontology. We don't need to know what mix of properties is greater. You have failed over and over to even come close to illustrating your contention that is is not possible to a have a maximally great being. You only bring up confusion as to how would we know: epistemology--which is not a concern at all.
Really? Why is it not *possible* for God to have those properties? or are you assuming God has *other* properties that contradict those? Which is exactly my point: you have to pick and choose which properties you are wanting in a deity in order to show they are mutually consistent.
And *than* you* have to show a common maximum for all of the ones you choose it possible.
I know definitions are hard for a lot of atheists. To repeat myself, bravery requires fear. We can REASON that an eternal, omnipotent and omniscient being does not fear. See, no "picking and choosing involved"--all reasoning and logic. This is not rocket science.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 12:43 pm
(This post was last modified: September 28, 2018 at 12:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You don't reason that, you just believe it...but you only believe it because you're thinking of fear in terms of externals. If great fairy truly is as fucking terrible and mighty as magic books says..then it has every reason to fear much about itself...and it would take bravery to confront itself and those reasonable fears.
All impossible for your not so great greatest being, I guess...if you say so.
Not that it matters whether or not great fairy is incapable of fear....since that's just another thing it sucks at...if so.
Quote:A man who conquers himself is greater than one who conquers a thousand men in battle
-Buddha
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 2:27 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 12:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 12:25 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Really? Why is it not *possible* for God to have those properties? or are you assuming God has *other* properties that contradict those? Which is exactly my point: you have to pick and choose which properties you are wanting in a deity in order to show they are mutually consistent.
And *than* you* have to show a common maximum for all of the ones you choose it possible.
I know definitions are hard for a lot of atheists. To repeat myself, bravery requires fear. We can REASON that an eternal, omnipotent and omniscient being does not fear. See, no "picking and choosing involved"--all reasoning and logic. This is not rocket science.
Which means that this deity cannot be maximal for this property, even though it is a good property.
But, you have not actually said *why* a deity cannot experience fear. For example, did Jesus ever experience fear? Why or why not?
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 4:16 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 2:27 pm)polymath257 Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 12:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: I know definitions are hard for a lot of atheists. To repeat myself, bravery requires fear. We can REASON that an eternal, omnipotent and omniscient being does not fear. See, no "picking and choosing involved"--all reasoning and logic. This is not rocket science.
Which means that this deity cannot be maximal for this property, even though it is a good property.
But, you have not actually said *why* a deity cannot experience fear. For example, did Jesus ever experience fear? Why or why not?
No one ever claimed God must have every property that is good. The claim is that every property he has is the greatest possible version of that property.
fear
ˈfir/
noun
- 1.
an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.
Since God cannot experience something dangerous to him and he cannot hold any false beliefs, he cannot have fear.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 4:34 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 4:16 pm)SteveII Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 2:27 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Which means that this deity cannot be maximal for this property, even though it is a good property.
But, you have not actually said *why* a deity cannot experience fear. For example, did Jesus ever experience fear? Why or why not?
No one ever claimed God must have every property that is good. The claim is that every property he has is the greatest possible version of that property.
fear
ˈfir/
noun
- 1.
an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.
Since God cannot experience something dangerous to him and he cannot hold any false beliefs, he cannot have fear.
Well, that shows an example of what i am saying. Perhaps by being a little less 'great' in one way, he could have fear and be much more 'great' in another sense by being brave. That would make Him overall, more 'great', even if less great in one particular way.
But, even if you want to avoid this, how do you determine *which* aspects God is maximal in? Why do you assume 'power' is one of them? Why do you assume 'knowledge' is another? Is there a different being that is maximally brave, for example? Would that being be worthy of worship because of that maximal bravery? If you pick and choose which properties to maximize over, you allow that some other being maximizes those you leave out.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
September 28, 2018 at 4:39 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 2:27 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Which means that this deity cannot be maximal for this property, even though it is a good property.
But, you have not actually said *why* a deity cannot experience fear. For example, did Jesus ever experience fear? Why or why not?
Ever tried to discuss star trek fans the awsomeness of darth vader. This is about the closest example I can ever get.
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