At work.

I appologize now, but can't resist.

(September 30, 2018 at 8:08 am)Mathilda Wrote: ..... With a Scottish husband, he saw first hand what I was talking about. His boss would boast about sailing and how he was really pushing himself by doing so. So my husband casually mentioned once having to climb out of the way of an avalanche in the gully on Buachaille etive Mor when he was walking up there using two walking poles as ice picks which killed the two climbers below him.....

As my Welsh relatives would say, "Aye, sounds like a typical bl@@dy Scott!"



Mathilda.

I'll.... see my self out of the thread. ...

(September 30, 2018 at 8:39 am)wyzas Wrote:

(September 30, 2018 at 8:22 am)Mathilda Wrote: Yeah I could have phrased that sentence better.

Just havin a bit o fun.

Well it's important to make the distinction when talking about the Scots

I have no idea what the OP was, but for the most part, I feel like gender has become such a fluid concept in the 21st century that it's increasingly difficult to define masculinity or femininity without offending someone or the other. If positive masculinity was about humility and kindness and stuff like that, as some people on this thread have suggested, then there'd be radical feminists claiming that women are all those things too (and yes, they'd completely be missing the point). And personally I don't feel like it's necessary to define masculinity or femininity. It's like race and birthplace/country/nationality - something we're born with. Personally I've never thought 'I'm a female, so I can't/shouldn't/wouldn't usually do this.' or 'I'm a female, so I can/should/would usually do this'. It's always been 'I'm me, so I will (or won't) do this'. Gender just doesn't seem important to me. 
(I understand that in theory masculine or feminine refers more to sex than gender, but it seems to be used in a gender related way in reality. )
Again, I'm doing a terrible job of explaining my view, but I hope someone gets it.

Could you please stop peeing your name on the side of the house?

(September 29, 2018 at 2:40 pm)Aroura Wrote:

(September 29, 2018 at 2:31 pm)SaStrike Wrote: I didn't disagree with you. I wanted to know your reasoning behind why you considered it a masculine trait. I thought masculine meant relating to men?

All traits can be either. That's just completely besides the point I was trying to make.

I wanted to try to give some examples of things men might adopt as positive examples in place of the toxic ones, and role models for such traits. I wanted to focus on positive behaviors instead of all the threads focusing on the negative ones.

This is in opposition to the toxic masculinity thread. We are discussing masculinity. Men can be empathic, and nurturing, traits generally associated with women, as I said in my OP. Few things should be genderized. Which I thought was clear in my op. That's the point of this entire post, if anyone bothered to actually read past the first few lines. Men can have what are often viewed as feminine traits and still be strong men.

Again, just thought I'd try and be positive about men instead of shitting all over them. Lesson learned.

Ha, in this environment good luck. Of course you are 100% right. Men have 10,000% more testoserone that women. They are more likely to be violent but more likely to be heroic too.

Of course women can do all the things men can and vice versa. But to use that as some sort of argument against positive traits that come up more frequently in men (as your critics have done in this thread) is absurd and shallow minded, and goes against all the evidence we have on the subject.

(September 29, 2018 at 1:08 pm)Aroura Wrote: Are you arguing there are no positive masculine traits? 

Whether or not any masculine traits exist which are not learned and arbitrary is an interesting question. But if you have to ask what they are then the answer is probably no. So positive ones? Meh. Personally I'd prefer to think if there are any and I'm a man, then what can I do about it? Not much. But if they amount to some unthinking societal code which I'm expected to figure out and master .. no thank you. I'll pass.

---

(September 30, 2018 at 11:03 am)wyzas Wrote: Could you please stop peeing your name on the side of the house?

Heh heh.  How'd you figure out it was me?

---

(September 29, 2018 at 2:26 pm)Aroura Wrote:

(September 29, 2018 at 2:20 pm)SaStrike Wrote: Critical thinking is masculine?

No!  No more than aggressiveness belongs solely to men.  Women can be violent, too.

OMG, you guys.  There is a thread discussing things that men can do that are toxic.  This is a thread to discuss things that men can do that are positive.

Probably will just frustrate you more but I still feel like positive things men can do is just positive things people can do - being done by a man.  I just don't spend any time thinking about what to do or not do on the basis of being male.

(September 30, 2018 at 12:27 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Ha, in this environment good luck. Of course you are 100% right. Men have 10,000% more testoserone that women. They are more likely to be violent but more likely to be heroic too.

Of course women can do all the things men can and vice versa. But to use that as some sort of argument against positive traits that come up more frequently in men (as your critics have done in this thread) is absurd and shallow minded, and goes against all the evidence we have on the subject.

You have been in Spain. Never saw those simple pamplonas when young guys like I was before, fought bulls? It is nice preparation for marriage.

....

*runs off*

(September 30, 2018 at 12:59 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(September 30, 2018 at 12:27 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Ha, in this environment good luck. Of course you are 100% right. Men have 10,000% more testoserone that women. They are more likely to be violent but more likely to be heroic too.

Of course women can do all the things men can and vice versa. But to use that as some sort of argument against positive traits that come up more frequently in men (as your critics have done in this thread) is absurd and shallow minded, and goes against all the evidence we have on the subject.

You have been in Spain. Never saw those simple pamplonas when young guys like I was before, fought bulls? It is nice preparation for marriage.

....

*runs off*

Machismo in Latin America drives me crazy. I never was a feminist until I spent significant time in Mexico. It's the same in all those countries really.

It doesn't mean there aren't positive masculine traits. Most firefighters are men, ER doctors skew male more than any type of doctor but heart surgeon. I'd say that's the positive side of testosterone at work.

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(September 30, 2018 at 12:48 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(September 29, 2018 at 1:08 pm)Aroura Wrote: Are you arguing there are no positive masculine traits? 

Whether or not any masculine traits exist which are not learned and arbitrary is an interesting question. But if you have to ask what they are then the answer is probably no. So positive ones? Meh. Personally I'd prefer to think if there are any and I'm a man, then what can I do about it? Not much. But if they amount to some unthinking societal code which I'm expected to figure out and master .. no thank you. I'll pass.

---

(September 30, 2018 at 11:03 am)wyzas Wrote: Could you please stop peeing your name on the side of the house?

Heh heh.  How'd you figure out it was me?

---

(September 29, 2018 at 2:26 pm)Aroura Wrote: No!  No more than aggressiveness belongs solely to men.  Women can be violent, too.

OMG, you guys.  There is a thread discussing things that men can do that are toxic.  This is a thread to discuss things that men can do that are positive.

Probably will just frustrate you more but I still feel like positive things men can do is just positive things people can do - being done by a man.  I just don't spend any time thinking about what to do or not do on the basis of being male.

To argue that there are no inherently male traits and that it's all just society and culture would be to argue that having 10000% more testoserone has no effect on someone. I doubt you'll find a scientist willing to go along with that assertion.

Take a woman and inject her to make level testosterone and you see changes in her mood, behavior, threshhold for risk, all kinds of things. It's a hell of a drug.

(September 30, 2018 at 8:08 am)Mathilda Wrote: I missed this thread and don't really have time to read it at the moment. But I think that there is a problem with masculine traits not really being that required so much in society any more. In earlier times, men would go off and fight in wars, or other tribes or hunt big animals which could easily kill them. Physical strength was also far more useful before the age of machines.  This means though that the drives and urges are still there but no outlet to be useful. But they still have to go somewhere.

I'd agree with this, but with a caveat-- the evolution of humans is maybe a million years, and the development of modern society is 2000 years or just 50, and even that only applies to Western societies and a few modernized Asian and African ones.

With the rapid advances of technology, it may be that the day of the human brute is done forever.  Boots on the ground may not mean anything anymore if swarms of billions of tiny drones become the new face of conventional warfare, or if our biggest threats come through the internet.

(September 30, 2018 at 1:55 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(September 30, 2018 at 12:48 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Whether or not any masculine traits exist which are not learned and arbitrary is an interesting question.  But if you have to ask what they are then the answer is probably no.  So positive ones?  Meh.  Personally I'd prefer to think if there are any and I'm a man, then what can I do about it?  Not much.  But if they amount to some unthinking societal code which I'm expected to figure out and master .. no thank you.  I'll pass.

---

Probably will just frustrate you more but I still feel like positive things men can do is just positive things people can do - being done by a man.  I just don't spend any time thinking about what to do or not do on the basis of being male.

To argue that there are no inherently male traits and that it's all just society and culture would be to argue that having 10000% more testoserone has no effect on someone. I doubt you'll find a scientist willing to go along with that assertion.

Take a woman and inject her to make level testosterone and you see changes in her mood, behavior, threshhold for risk, all kinds of things. It's a hell of a drug.

Well good thing I haven't done that. As I say, I find the question interesting. But I don't think there is any direct line and uniform way testosterone is expressed in the behavior of men. Cultural heritage is huge in understanding human behavior.