(October 5, 2018 at 7:01 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: there's an even more basic problem at fault underneath all the complex power structures: Tribalism. It's the basic problem underlying everything and to shift it ALL to issues of power (which certainly does make everything worse) feels like entirely missing the point.

This is for sure the most important point to be got from all this:
1) Tribalism is one of the most central instincts to the human species.
2) Countering tribalism with more tribalism cannot possibly result in the cessation of tribalism.

It's pretty obvious that American politics has descended from any real attempt at rationale to heels-dug-in partisanship. The Democrats and Republicans will no more give up any advantage to each other than would have the Americans and the Japanese in WWII.

I'm kind of feeling that only blood in the streets, and lots of it, is the only way that the deadlock will ever be resolved. But I'm hoping that open discourse will lead to an interest in proper debate and an amicable resolution. Whatever people think about Peterson, I think we can all agree that having smart guys like him and Sam Harris debate in front of stadiums is better than listening to fucking Trump shouting "Fake News" about obviously true news 24/7.

Peterson isn't making intelligent points, regardless of how smart he may be. He -is- screaming "fake news" at the camera....and some folks are just lapping it up, lol.

When he's not busy screaming "fake news"..he's busily producing his own fake news. That's what made him notable in the first place.

(October 5, 2018 at 7:01 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: But on a smaller level, it's certainly possible for one to be racist against white people.

Racist in the general sense, sure. But I'd like to emphasize one key thing from that page.

Quote:The black nationalist movement is a reaction to centuries of institutionalized white supremacy in America.

The bigotry/hatred in this case is reactionary, as opposed to being due to power and privilege. They're not favored by the current social/racial/economic/political/legal/religious systems that have been established, and continue to be maintained, for the benefit of white people in America and elsewhere.

I think it's important to make that distinction between this kind of racism and the institutional racism clear, because to suggest otherwise to the privileged is to continue to enable them to be blind to the extent of injustices against the unprivileged and to falsely [and dangerously] think that they can also be discriminated against as badly because of their whiteness.

Of course, I say this not simply from my own mouth, as you probably know. This is something that black people themselves have argued for, and I find their argument that white people cannot be considered victims of racism to be reasonable and compelling. White people can certainly still be hated and experience bitterness and anger from others, though.

And yes, I agree tribalism is at the root of all this, and pretty much every group is guilty of it. And I'm certainly not at all advocating for power to be transferred to "the other side".

(October 6, 2018 at 10:24 am)Grandizer Wrote:

Quote:The black nationalist movement is a reaction to centuries of institutionalized white supremacy in America.

The bigotry/hatred in this case is reactionary, as opposed to being due to power and privilege. They're not favored by the current social/racial/economic/political/legal/religious systems that have been established, and continue to be maintained, for the benefit of white people in America and elsewhere.

A point I myself brought up in the post, talking about "the massive power structures that repressed them so badly that they were convinced they needed their own organization to be as bad as their oppressors"

(October 6, 2018 at 10:43 am)Grandizer Wrote: To be more accurate, perceived colors. There are African Americans who have what you could call white skin, but are nevertheless perceived as black.

Like Dave Matthews and Charlize Theron? Both were born in Johannesburg (technically, Theron's from Benoni, which is about 17 miles from Johannesburg, which is the distance between Chicago and Glenview, so not that far.) Oh, wait, "percieved as black," which neither are.

(October 6, 2018 at 10:43 am)Grandizer Wrote:

Quote:I believe that an egalitarian society should provide equal protections for all citizens without regard to the color of their skin.  But while you and I both agree that racism is one of the forms of prejudice from which a citizen should be protected, you have expressly defined racism in such a way that some individuals will fall under protection from race-based prejudice, and some will not-- and this difference in protection you've predicated not on individual merit or abilities, but on skin color.

I do not endorse any political position which expresses intent to treat individual citizens differently based on their racial identity.

White people don't need protection from race-based prejudice, even if there are groups that hate white people.

You talk about black people like they are an endangered species. They are citizens, accorded the same liberties and rights as other citizens. If they feel their rights aren't being fulfilled, then they can sue, or protest, or pick up arms against tyranny. And if you feel like supporting them in any of those endeavors, then I respect your right to do so.

But when you take it upon yourself to support a position by which unequal treatment of individual citizens is not only allowed but required, and this unequal treatment is predicated on race (real or apparent), then you are trying to get two wrongs to make a right.

You're wrong on this one, man. You're a racist using special pleading and tunnel-vision definitions to justify your racism. Don't do that. Repeat after me: "One law for all."