(October 12, 2018 at 7:08 am)Deesse23 Wrote: 8 Pages for such a fairly simple (imho) issue? Jesus. f. Christ.

No, no victim ever needs to present evidence for a crime. Thats the job of the fucking prosecutor (police, district attorney). Every country has a whole branch of government, called "the executive" to investigate, collect evidence and prosecute. All an (alleged) victim needs to do is report a crime.
When i think i got robbed, i report to the fucking cops, and i dont need to put fucking evidence on the table (but maybe the bruises i brought with me. But again, the cops will make the pictues of my mauled face etc, no myself). Its their job. Its also their job to put me in jail after they have collected evidence that i was reporting a crime that didnt happen, knowingly.

So, yes, Melaina is full of it.

All the cops need to make an arrest is a signed affidavit.  They aren't perfect, of course (and, some are corrupt to the core), but for the most part, they are good at sifting the wheat from the chafe.

(October 11, 2018 at 11:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:44 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: RR, nobody is asking you to swallow a pill whole. I don't think anybody is saying: "accept that there is a rape culture and all the accompanying beliefs." There are societal norms in place that permit rape and make it easier for sexual assault to occur. I think you accept that basic premise. From there, all that is required is reflection. ie If that is true, what are the possible ramifications for victims living within that cultural situation.

No, I don’t think that society permits or condones rape. Or makes it easier to be raped, other than perhaps current attitudes towards casual sex is perhaps aiding it.

RR, we just had over half of the GOP state that they believe Brett Kavanaugh should still get to be SCJ even if he DID commit sexual assault.  That’s a problem that is staring you directly in the face. That is how a society implicitly condones rape.  Are you going to choose to see it, or cover your eyes?

(October 12, 2018 at 6:26 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 9:03 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don’t know... didn’t get the details on how she knew them.  The republican lawyer didn’t seem to ask any tough questions. But if she didn’t know them (as her friend who was suppose to be there didn’t) I think that these types of studies would apply.

Indeed; the same such studies apply to "bereavement visions", seeing dead people, alien abductees, etc. (and, might I add, religious experiences, also.)  Of course, the Kavanaugh hearings fell under federal administrative congressional law and procedures, and so, you need to stop applying state or federal criminal law standards and levels of evidence here.

I don’t think that the Gospel accounts really for the pattern for bereavement visions. Or are you saying that you think Ford just hallucinated this. Why would you think that?

---

(October 12, 2018 at 10:55 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: No, I don’t think that society permits or condones rape. Or makes it easier to be raped, other than perhaps current attitudes towards casual sex is perhaps aiding it.

RR, we just had over half of the GOP state that they believe Brett Kavanaugh should still get to be SCJ even if he DID commit sexual assault.  That’s a problem that is staring you directly in the face. That is how a society implicitly condones rape.  Are you going to choose to see it, or cover your eyes?

If I remember correctly, I wasn’t crazy about the wording of that poll. What do you think they where saying in this? I ask, because it seems that many seem to twist anything I or others here have said on the topic to get to there narrrative of a culture of rape.

I don’t think that they where saying sexual assault is ok; or to be condoned. I think that in order to have a discussion, you need to listen, quit assuming the worst in everyone, and talk to them. Rather than so much identity politics and rhetoric ; which is what I’m seeing a lot of. It seems that people are not accurately portraying others, I was even accused of lying in this thread, just for stating my opinion.

No, Dr. Ford did not hallucinate; as for the "disciples," difficult to say what was going on there.  Maybe mushrooms?

(October 12, 2018 at 12:10 pm)Jehanne Wrote: No, Dr. Ford did not hallucinate; as for the "disciples," difficult to say what was going on there.  Maybe mushrooms?

So, that comment was completely irrelevant then. Or are you saying maybe Ford was doing Shrooms?

(October 11, 2018 at 11:33 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: …there is no such thing as “making too big a deal” out of rape culture. Either the culture is actively working toward reducing the number of sexual assaults and the stigma of sexual assault, or it’s not. Under the current administration, it’s not.

The Obama administrations title IX guidelines have produced kangaroo courts in colleges and universities resulting in academic discipline, including expulsions, of male students on the filmiest of accusations. Correcting this unjust overreach and abuse is not the same as stigmatizing sexual assault. IMHO there must surely be ways to encourage and assist women who have been sexually assaulted without turning it into a zero-sum game that increases the risk of men being falsely accused. We can have both/and instead of either/or.

(October 11, 2018 at 11:02 pm)Grandizer Wrote: You don't think rape culture is much of a thing. That's what contributes to it, whether you realize it or not.

IMO the malevolent presence of a rape culture is not as obvious to me as it is to you. It shares an insidious vagueness with another noxious phrase, “black attitudes.” It’s an ill-defined box into which people can put pretty much anything they want to vilify or bend to promote political aims. As such, I am very skeptical of attributing criminal sexual assault to other broad ambiguous concepts such as so-called toxic masculinity. Is the thug role glorified by hip-hop music responsible for gang-violence? I don’t think that likely. Even if artistic presentations of thuggishness were a contributing factor, I would be inclined to assign it a minor role.

At the same time I do not deny the possibility that certain cultural attitude can indeed dramatically encourage rape. Having opportunities to rape the wives and daughters of ancient Rome’s enemies was used as an incentive to encourage voluntary conscription. But his is several orders of magnitude above using innocuous proverbs like “boys will be boys” to justify young male penchants for getting, dirty, rough-housing, and aggressive role-play, i.e. cops & robbers, king of he hill, etc. I see more harm in going against 300,000 years of evolutionary programming than recognizing broad generalizations, positive and negative, about masculinity and femininity.

IMO characterizing opposing strategies as slut-shaming and unconditionally believing all accusations serves no useful purpose. It seems too many people debating the issue are relying on intuitive but dubious stereotypes. I do not know if being a “woman of easy virtue” actually carries an increased risk of victimization. Similarly, I do not know if social acceptance of male promiscuity allows some men to justify violence towards women. Maybe, maybe not. There seem to be good arguments for the opposite. Naïve and prudish girls could be inclined to misinterpret the advances of players as harassment – the same advances that would get them slapped by more sexually confident women. Socially awkward boys might use violence to overcome their fears, whereas men who are secure in their masculinity can slough-off rejections.

In a less sexually promiscuous culture wedding rings would serve as more reliable indicators of consent than tentative grasps and inviting whispers during casual encounters. Men’s crude boasting would be met with peer contempt while restraint during temptation would be esteemed. I think it is clear that claims of not having given consent would be more readily accepted if outward signs of consent were expected before engaging in sexual activity. I also think that if secular culture treated sexuality with more respect; Trump’s vulgar locker room talk would not have been so easily dismissed.

These are very unpopular positions today and conservatives are ridiculed for these supposed old-fashioned virtues even though IMHO such socially valuable attitudes can be restored without the moralizing condemnation and sexual repression of the Victorian era. We can still learn from the so-called sexual revolution (like demystifying female orgasm or dispelling unrealistic expectations about male libido) without succumbing to its excesses.

(October 12, 2018 at 10:55 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: …we just had over half of the GOP state that they believe Brett Kavanaugh should still get to be SCJ even if he DID commit sexual assault.

The belief that a robust and fair criminal justice system does not punish people their entire lives for juvenile crime is NOT condoning rape any more than allowing reformed felons to secure gainful employment and housing condones robbery or man-slaughter.

(October 11, 2018 at 9:06 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: The president of the United States is contributing to a rape culture right now, by 1)mocking alleged victims in front of large audiences, and 2) perpetuating false narratives about the length of time victims take to come forward.

-my numbering-

Yes, 2) is a false narrative and ignorant. He has no excuse. As for 1) apart from his tone of voice, Trump presented actual facts that came out during Ford’s testimony which was at best vague and inconsistent. And as for Trump’s mocking, of better or worse, social conservatives do not take Trump’s rhetoric seriously, perhaps because leftists have trained us to ignore theirs by their calling good and decent Republican politicians, like Bob Dole, Mitt Romney and John McCain, misogynists and racists.

(October 11, 2018 at 11:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:44 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: RR, nobody is asking you to swallow a pill whole. I don't think anybody is saying: "accept that there is a rape culture and all the accompanying beliefs." There are societal norms in place that permit rape and make it easier for sexual assault to occur. I think you accept that basic premise. From there, all that is required is reflection. ie If that is true, what are the possible ramifications for victims living within that cultural situation.

No, I don’t think that society permits or condones rape. Or makes it easier to be raped, other than possibly current attitudes towards casual sex is perhaps aiding it.

(October 12, 2018 at 11:22 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 10:55 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: RR, we just had over half of the GOP state that they believe Brett Kavanaugh should still get to be SCJ even if he DID commit sexual assault.  That’s a problem that is staring you directly in the face. That is how a society implicitly condones rape.  Are you going to choose to see it, or cover your eyes?

If I remember correctly, I wasn’t crazy about the wording of that poll. What do you think they where saying in this?  I ask, because it seems that many seem to twist anything I or others here have said on the topic to get to there narrrative of a culture of rape.

I don’t think that they where saying sexual assault is ok; or to be condoned.  I think that in order to have a discussion, you need to listen, quit assuming the worst in everyone, and talk to them. Rather than so much identity politics and rhetoric ; which is what I’m seeing a lot of. It seems that people are not accurately portraying others, I was even accused of lying in this thread, just for stating my opinion.

It seems pretty straightforward to me:

Quote:The survey asked, "If it were proven that Brett Kavanaugh sexually assaulted a woman when they were both high school students 36 years ago, do you think that does or does not disqualify Kavanaugh from being a Supreme Court Justice?" 

Quote:Forty-eight percent of respondents overall thought it should disqualify him, while 28 percent said it should not, and 24 percent were not sure, according to the results from The Economist/YouGov. But among Republicans, a majority—55 percent—thought a proven allegation of sexual assault does not disqualify Kavanaugh from serving on the Supreme Court. About one-quarter, 27 percent, thought it does disqualify him, while 18 percent were not sure.

Do I really need to explain what is wrong about this, and what it says about our current culture?

---

(October 12, 2018 at 12:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 10:55 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: …we just had over half of the GOP state that they believe Brett Kavanaugh should still get to be SCJ even if he DID commit sexual assault.

The belief that a robust and fair criminal justice system does not punish people their entire lives for juvenile crime is NOT condoning rape any more than allowing reformed felons to secure gainful employment and housing condones robbery or man-slaughter.

We are taking about a seat on Supreme Court, here. Are you kidding me? If CBF’s allegations are true, they are horrific; targeting a young girl with his friend, ambushing her, holding her against her will and using her body as an object for entertainment and sexual pleasure. That you think a human being capable of such callous disregard for the suffering of another at his hands should ever hold a position of power in this country indicates that you are part of the problem.

(October 11, 2018 at 9:06 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: The president of the United States is contributing to a rape culture right now, by 1)mocking alleged victims in front of large audiences, and 2) perpetuating false narratives about the length of time victims take to come forward.

Quote:-my numbering-

Yes, 2) is a false narrative and ignorant. He has no excuse. As for 1) apart from his tone of voice, Trump presented actual facts that came out during Ford’s testimony which was at best vague and inconsistent.

Actually, he lied about her testimony to the ignorant delight of his crowd. He said she ‘doesn’t remember if it was upstairs or downstairs’, which is patently false.  She explicitly testified to the location of the assault being in an upstairs bedroom.  And, he’s the POTUS.  Does tone not matter?  As far as human communication is concerned, non-verbal has more of an impact on your audience than verbal, by a wide margin.

Quote:And as for Trump’s mocking, of better or worse, social conservatives do not take Trump’s rhetoric seriously.

Do you know who takes his public mocking seriously?  Victims of sexual assault who are internally weighing the risks versus the benefits of coming forward.

(October 12, 2018 at 1:03 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 11:22 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don’t think that the Gospel accounts really for the pattern for bereavement visions. Or are you saying that you think Ford just hallucinated this.  Why would you think that?

---

If I remember correctly, I wasn’t crazy about the wording of that poll. What do you think they where saying in this?  I ask, because it seems that many seem to twist anything I or others here have said on the topic to get to there narrrative of a culture of rape.

I don’t think that they where saying sexual assault is ok; or to be condoned.  I think that in order to have a discussion, you need to listen, quit assuming the worst in everyone, and talk to them. Rather than so much identity politics and rhetoric ; which is what I’m seeing a lot of. It seems that people are not accurately portraying others, I was even accused of lying in this thread, just for stating my opinion.

It seems pretty straightforward to me:

Quote:The survey asked, "If it were proven that Brett Kavanaugh sexually assaulted a woman when they were both high school students 36 years ago, do you think that does or does not disqualify Kavanaugh from being a Supreme Court Justice?" 

Quote:Forty-eight percent of respondents overall thought it should disqualify him, while 28 percent said it should not, and 24 percent were not sure, according to the results from The Economist/YouGov. But among Republicans, a majority—55 percent—thought a proven allegation of sexual assault does not disqualify Kavanaugh from serving on the Supreme Court. About one-quarter, 27 percent, thought it does disqualify him, while 18 percent were not sure.

Do I really need to explain what is wrong about this? 

Yes... if you think that it means that society is condoning rape.....  One of Judge Kavenaugh's first acts as justice was to hire all female law clerks, because he believes in promoting women.   Now if it was shown with evidence, that he raped one of these women today; do you think that the poll would be the same.   I don't think that it would be.  Now for some, I think that the answer is largely a result of the current political climate and current situation (and that a certain answer is going to be wrongly used against them), for others, they are going to take in consideration that this was done by a kid 30 years ago who has had nothing but good reviews as respecting and honoring women since   (not condoning, but recognizing the situation), and there are some; who I think with current democratic behavior weighs it about which is worse.  Most of the commentators I have heard, don't agree with this poll.  And the one who did, I think fell into a combination of the last two categories I mentioned.  

But perhaps I'm a little biased, because people are wrongly reading into and twisting anything I say to suite their agenda and narrative; crying rape culture.

(October 12, 2018 at 12:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:02 pm)Grandizer Wrote: You don't think rape culture is much of a thing. That's what contributes to it, whether you realize it or not.

IMO the malevolent presence of a rape culture is not as obvious to me as it is to you.

Well, it wasn't that obvious to me until fairly recently. It took quite a bit of reflection and awareness (prompted by insights and experiences shared by many women) to really see how widespread rape is, and how much as a society we tend to trivialize the extent of rape in our culture.

Quote:It shares an insidious vagueness with another noxious phrase, “black attitudes.” It’s an ill-defined box into which people can put pretty much anything they want to vilify or bend to promote political aims. As such, I am very skeptical of attributing criminal sexual assault to other broad ambiguous concepts such as so-called toxic masculinity. Is the thug role glorified by hip-hop music responsible for gang-violence? I don’t think that likely. Even if artistic presentations of thuggishness were a contributing factor, I would be inclined to assign it a minor role.

You can't compare the two. The evidence is clear in our society that rape is widespread, that we have the tendency to blame the victim of rape rather than fully blame the rapist, that we expect rape victims to behave in certain ways without understanding what they're feeling and going through because we're under this delusion that the world is just and supportive when it's not always so.

Your denial of rape culture further propagates it.

Quote:At the same time I do not deny the possibility that certain cultural attitude can indeed dramatically encourage rape. Having opportunities to rape the wives and daughters of ancient Rome’s enemies was used as an incentive to encourage voluntary conscription. But his is several orders of magnitude above using innocuous proverbs like “boys will be boys” to justify young male penchants for getting, dirty, rough-housing, and aggressive role-play, i.e. cops & robbers, king of he hill, etc.

Innocuous? Phrases like "boys will be boys" have been used to excuse rape. And you call this innocuous?

And why would you even bring up the ancient Romans in this case just to say they did worse than modern people do? I don't get it.

Quote:I see more harm in going against 300,000 years of evolutionary programming than recognizing broad generalizations, positive and negative, about masculinity and femininity.

Programming? You do realize evolution doesn't set things in stone, right? That you can adapt flexibly to the changes of this world because you are rationally capable of doing so? Because the human brain has evolved to allow for such flexibility?

And what exactly is harmful about going against the grain of evolution?

Quote:I do not know if being a “woman of easy virtue” actually carries an increased risk of victimization. Similarly, I do not know if social acceptance of male promiscuity allows some men to justify violence towards women. Maybe, maybe not. There seem to be good arguments for the opposite. Naïve and prudish girls could be inclined to misinterpret the advances of players as harassment – the same advances that would get them slapped by more sexually confident women. Socially awkward boys might use violence to overcome their fears, whereas men who are secure in their masculinity can slough-off rejections.

So perhaps these boys and men should learn to interact with women like human beings instead of as means to some end.

Quote:In a less sexually promiscuous culture wedding rings would serve as more reliable indicators of consent than tentative grasps and inviting whispers during casual encounters. Men’s crude boasting would be met with peer contempt while restraint during temptation would be esteemed. I think it is clear that claims of not having given consent would be more readily accepted if outward signs of consent were expected before engaging in sexual activity.

Nice lovely chauvinist fantasy you have there, but it has no basis in reality. That which you describe never happened so purely or innocently ever in the past, and the present is not worse than the past. If anything, while there is clearly a long way to go before sexism is eradicated for good, women (despite the current shitty hurdles that they still have to face) fare slightly better now than in the chauvinistic past of the 60s and earlier.

Quote:I also think that if secular culture treated sexuality with more respect; Trump’s vulgar locker room talk would not have been so easily dismissed.

Thank the Republican politics for that, and institutional sexism/misogyny in general.

Quote:These are very unpopular positions today and conservatives are ridiculed for these supposed old-fashioned virtues ...

You poor thing.

Quote:We can still learn from the so-called sexual revolution (like demystifying female orgasm or dispelling unrealistic expectations about male libido) without succumbing to its excesses.

There's nothing excessive about acknowledging that rape culture is a thing. If anything, we still don't seem to understand just how bad it is, despite the many scandals of the last couple years.