So the word has a special meaning in this context, which should never be used? What’s the point of the word then?

It has it's use, people can be in that state, but whether they are or not, it's not up to us to decide in this time. It warns us not to be like that.

If I disbelieve after the knowledge I have, I would say, I am a disbeliever.

And labelling a people with it, will come about when Imam Mahdi comes with clear miracles, proofs, and revives the Quran and Sunnah.

There is also a verse that says "...and none differed with respect to it (the book) except to those who it was brought down to after knowledge had come to them, out of rebellion between themselves...."

So disbelief is primarily found and really - to people who grasp the message, to those who read the book but then turn away from their knowledge, and then twist it and turn away from clear proofs. But even then, it's not up to use to decide so and so is an instance of that in present time.

MysticKnight:
Briefly goes through why we shouldn't call other humans disbelievers (including Atheists)!

I don't believe you believe that.

(October 29, 2018 at 5:29 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Khemikal, always, coming to bicker, even when I defend Atheists as not all being too stubborn to believe and that they may accept proofs at higher level for all we know and we can't judge them as evil humans.

I see, so, I'm suppose to say, no you guys won't accept even if you see Angels, and God comes to you and talks to you and no matter what miracles you are shown you will disbelieve.

Jeez, talk about bickering for the sake of bickering.

The idiosyncratic definitions your silly faith forces you to adopt aren't compelling to me, and I note again that both you and magic book fucked the pooch entirely on this.

Hilariously, even accepting your nonsense as truth won't help..since I wouldn't be a muslim..even if allah existed. I don't just think that you're wrong, I think that your beliefs are crap -if true-.

I prefer to be called on time for dinner.

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(October 29, 2018 at 6:04 pm)no one Wrote: MysticKnight:
Briefly goes through why we shouldn't call other humans disbelievers (including Atheists)!

I don't believe you believe that.

You've not seen a troll before?

Your position, MK, reminds me of what another theist in the past has argued: that atheists aren't really rejecting God if they lack sufficient knowledge to do so, therefore are not condemned to hell but go to heaven regardless (if they behave in ways that are deemed good in God's eyes, of course). To that, all I can say is that I knowingly reject the existence of the Abrahamic god. I've read what he's like in the Bible and I've read what he's like in the Qur'an, and taking into consideration the history knowledge I've personally attained and the psychological/societal/evolutionary factors that play a huge role in shaping theistic beliefs in various ways, it's clear to me that it's man-made. But even if by some weird fucking bizarre magic your god did exist, I would still disown him anyway because I don't like its character. And even if the scriptures turned out they did not do his character any justice at all, I would still reject it anyway ... because of the actual world it has given us instead of a far better world with far less suffering and far less cruelty.

If, after saying all this, I'm still not counted by you as a disbeliever, then you are desperate.

You maybe saying that, just for the sake of arguing. I can't really know if you would actually disbelieve in God if he was proven to you.

(October 29, 2018 at 6:29 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You maybe saying that, just for the sake of arguing.  I can't really know if you would actually disbelieve in God if he was proven to you.

Disbelieve in the normal sense of the word, of course not. But then you're not using this normal sense of the word (as evidenced by this thread). You clearly mean something else by "disbelief". If you mean "wilful rejection", then I am a clear disbeliever, no matter how you choose to portray me as. God showing himself to me would not all of a sudden make me desire him, as long as I get to act freely in some manner at least.

(October 29, 2018 at 6:35 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(October 29, 2018 at 6:29 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You maybe saying that, just for the sake of arguing.  I can't really know if you would actually disbelieve in God if he was proven to you.

Disbelieve in the normal sense of the word, of course not. But then you're not using this normal sense of the word (as evidenced by this thread). You clearly mean something else by "disbelief". If you mean "wilful rejection", then I am a clear disbeliever, no matter how you choose to portray me as. God showing himself to me would not all of a sudden make me desire him, as long as I get to act freely in some manner at least.

I think you should understand the term as Quran meant to what it means per Quran terms. Iblis worshipped God but a moment of rebellion made him a disbeliever and reject all he knew.

It's not that there is no disbelievers, it's just, you can't assess that a person is a disbeliever, unless, clear proofs exist. As for the clear proof, we are living in a time as expressed in Quran "they ask you why not a sign/proof brought down: say the hiding (of it) is for God so wait, we too are of those who wait". We live in age where the guide expressed in "They ask why not a sign/proof brought down, say you are only a warner and for every people there is a guide", the Guide who proves through such clear proofs and miracles, is hidden now and not in the open.

For all I know, when Imam Mahdi comes with clear proofs and my desire hates some of his teachings I rebel against him, while you submit and follow.

We can't know. We are in a dark night, where God has given humanity rest from clear proof of the truth where they don't constantly witness miracles. They are resting from it after they rebelled to a period where Prophet Mohammad and his successors had clear proofs and miracles, but they rebelled or didn't do their duty in supporting them.

(October 29, 2018 at 6:37 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 29, 2018 at 6:35 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Disbelieve in the normal sense of the word, of course not. But then you're not using this normal sense of the word (as evidenced by this thread). You clearly mean something else by "disbelief". If you mean "wilful rejection", then I am a clear disbeliever, no matter how you choose to portray me as. God showing himself to me would not all of a sudden make me desire him, as long as I get to act freely in some manner at least.

I think you should understand the term as Quran meant to what it means per Quran terms.

If I disbelieve after the knowledge I have, then I am a disbeliever. You said this yourself in an earlier post, and I argued that I do have enough knowledge to consciously disbelieve. In fact, that's what explicit atheists (which is a thing) are doing. They consciously disbelieve the existence of God after much reading and pondering.

And again, if you mean by "disbelief" that rejection which persists after God reveals himself to me, then I would still "disbelieve" in the sense that I would still reject him as a god worthy of worship. You can't get any worse than that as a disbeliever. If even that is not deemed a disbeliever, then nobody is a disbeliever or can ever be!!!

Just saw your appended edit. Well, I still stand by what I said. Given I know far more about my personal experiences than you do, I know how I would respond (if given the option to respond freely, that is). And if I did end up worshiping such a God, it would be because I was manipulated into doing so (or I suddenly suffered some major brain damage at the same time God appeared to me).