(December 28, 2018 at 9:07 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: If a baker doesn't want to bake cakes 'cuz jesus, Max..then he shouldn't be a baker.  No one sat him down and said "alright, you, you're a baker now, get to work on all those penis cakes!".

It seems like he intended to start a bigoted church, but got confused along the way.  I can see how that might happen, lol.

Someone else's sexual orientation isn't a determining factor of someone wanting to become a baker. Why should that baker not follow their dream because someone else has a different perspective on life and sexuality?  Again, it's not that they won't bake a cake, but rather a specific type of cake that is symbolic of something that they object to on the basis of what they believe to be immoral.  Now if it was refusing all product and services simply based on their identity, then I could see a problem there.

You're only asking me why a person shouldn't do something if they're incapable of doing it without breaking the law, Max.

People who decide to run a business here agree to adhere to our laws, and in return they enjoy the protection of our laws and the fiscal opportunity a society like ours provides them. That's the arrangement.

Romans 13:1-7

Quote:Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

So much for respect for the laws of the land.

Quote:No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money

Matthew 6:24.

(December 28, 2018 at 7:51 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: [quote='downbeatplumb' pid='1872828' dateline='1545996992']

You don't seem to get it. Homosexuality is a protected state due to the historical oppression. People are now no longer allowed to oppress homosexuals and not baking a cake with homosexual messages is counted as oppression. What you are basically asking for is us to think its ok for you to continue the illegal practice of continuing to oppress people.

you want us to think its ok for you to continue to be horrible.

(December 28, 2018 at 7:51 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Well then go be a homosexual then.  I'm not trying to oppress you.

I am not a homosexual, but I am also not a bigot. You don't have to be part of a group to not want to oppress it.

(December 28, 2018 at 7:51 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:   Not baking you a gay cake wouldn't violate your right to choose to be such, and your self-determination shouldn't be impaired by it.  Likewise, others have a right to self-determination as well, which includes Christians, Muslims, Atheists, or whatever other demographic you choose to be a part of.  If a KKK member wanted me to bake them a "hate cake" I would tell them the same thing.  Go somewhere else. 

You are equating a hate group with an oppressed minority, you are comparing apples to the downtown district of Detroit. Not the same thing at all.

(December 28, 2018 at 7:51 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: But equally so, they have the right to vote, be citizens, and to their own self-determination.  As long as they aren't bothering directly me or anyone else, I could give a flip about what they think or do because it has nothing to do with me.  It's too easy to find another bakery that will take your money.  Why not go there and give your money to someone who agrees with you and is happy to bake you your cake as you would like it made?

And what if all bakeries discriminate like you? what then?

This is the thin end of the wedge and should not be tolerated.

(December 28, 2018 at 9:26 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: You're only asking me why a person shouldn't do something if they're incapable of doing it without breaking the law, Max.

People who decide to run a business here agree to adhere to our laws, and in return they enjoy the protection of our laws and the fiscal opportunity a society like ours provides them.  That's the arrangement.

What laws?  Our Library of Congress on its lonesome is three buildings with around 40 million reference and law books.  That doesn't include the manuscripts it contains, which are greater in number.  We have state laws on top of that, city and county laws and ordinances.  I suppose you know and follow them all?

We have a Constitution and an international covenant that guarantees us the right of self-determination.  If someone tries to tell me I must violate myself on that basis, they can go fetch a stick.

(December 28, 2018 at 12:14 am)ResoluteBaptist Wrote: Heres a question for you:

Why do so many atheists  want to force Christian bakers to bake cakes for gay couples?

They don't approve of the lifestyle and deem it immoral. I fully believe that is their right.

Why must a devout Christian have to bake a cake to celebrate something he or she does not believe in?

Please tell me.

Because most of us don't believe 'my religion says so' to be a valid reason to exempt someone from equal application of the law. In states where public accommodation laws don't allow discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, that law applies to everyone who runs a business that is a place of public accommodation; that is, a place where the general public is considered to have a reasonable expectation that they won't be discriminated against; such as hotels, bakeries, restaurants, convenience stores, etc. Places where people have a reasonable expectation of service, not a 'sorry, I don't agree with your lifestyle'. Like a Muslim bartender who won't serve alcohol, you're simply in the wrong business if you think your religion prohibits you from conducting it according to the law.

I'm unfamiliar with the part of the Bible that says Christians should be exempt from such laws. If you'll point it out, I'm very interested.

(December 28, 2018 at 12:14 am)ResoluteBaptist Wrote: Heres a question for you:

Why do so many atheists  want to force Christian bakers to bake cakes for gay couples?

They don't approve of the lifestyle and deem it immoral. I fully believe that is their right.

Why must a devout Christian have to bake a cake to celebrate something he or she does not believe in?

Please tell me.

So I have two lawyer parents, and I’ll speak as they would.

There are two types of products, commodity products where everyone gets the same product and creative products. A commodity product is something like serving everyone who comes into your restaurant, or selling a pair of jeans to anyone who comes into your store. By law you cannot deny a commodity product to a person. It gets a bit more complicated, involving protected classes and compliance with conduct rules, but for the sake of this point if you sell an item you must sell to anyone who wants to buy it.

A creative product is a bit different. This is generally things like a graphic designer or a sculptor. You can’t compel a sculptor to make something they don’t want to, and you can’t force a graphic designer to make something they find offensive.

The dispute is over whether or not a cake is a commodity or a creative product. But the consensus is that pre-made cakes are a commodity. It is also that most common form cakes are also commodities. If you have a pre-made wedding cake for sale, that is a commodity and you have to sell it to anyone. If you make plain birthday cakes for one group you have to sell those cakes to anyone who comes in.

The legal dispute is if custom wedding cakes are creative or commodity products. And I dunno. A cake that is formula or pre-made is a commodity, and you have to sell it to anyone. But a custom cake is in a bit of a legal grey area. But I think that allowing discrimination of one group by a for profit business is a bad precedent.

(December 28, 2018 at 8:32 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

(December 28, 2018 at 8:09 am)Deesse23 Wrote: #1 Atheism has nothing to do with trying to stop discrimination. Being a decent person has.
#2 It is been tried to stop people from discriminating against others. Are you in favour or against discrimination?
#4 The baker is offering his service. Nobody forces him to bake cakes. But the is not allowed to discriminate while baking cakes. If he needs to discriminate while baking cakes, based on his religious beliefs, he better re-evaluate his beliefs.


#5a Being gay is not a lifestyle, its a biological condition, aquired by birth.
#5b1 Thinking that being gay is immoral is like thinking being taller than 6ft being immoral. By the way: i dont approve of your *taller than 6ft* lifestyle, and wont bake you any cakes. Hows that?
#5b2 Of course its anyobdys right to be stupid and think other people are immoral for how they were born..
#5b3 ...the bigger question is though, if the bigots who are discriminating are right (rather than being bigots being their right)
#5tl;dl: Its anyones right to be wrong and a bigot, but should we? I can shoot myself in the head with a .45, but should i?

#6 Its not the bakers business to judge on why anyone wants his cake. Noone asks him to believe or celebrate. Accordingly he is not supposed to force anyone else to follow the bakers beliefs. He is only asked to bake cakes, according to his offer to provide his service.
#5 Devout or not. Who gives a shit? Does being a devout bigot make someone a better bigot?

#2 So discriminate against the Christian baker and his or her right to self-determination?
#4 The baker has the right to believe as they choose.  Why should someone else's lifestyle dictate that? 
#5 Sometimes there are biological explanations, sometimes it is environmental and/or personal choice.
#5b1 False analogy.  Height is determined biologically and has nothing to do with morality.  Sexual choices can be immoral. 
#5b2 Same illogical conclusion as already stated.
#5b3 Who is the determining factor of who's a "bigot"?  Again, we all have the right to self-determination regardless of what demographic we fall under.
#5tl False analogy.  First part is presumptive, second part is consequential.

#2 The baker discriminating gays is discrimination. Preventing the baker form discriminating isnt discrminiation. Too bad his feelings/beliefs got hurt in the process of not letting him discriminate. After all nobody forced him to believe any different.
#4 Did somebody deny the baker to believe gays going to hell while he bakes cakes for them? Too bad his feelings got hurt in the process of preventing him form discriminating, but at least his right to believe was untouched.
#5 Personal choice? Please provide evidence. Tangible one preferred, not the crap you like to accept according to the obvious low bar you set for yourself.
#5b1 gayness is not a choice. How often do you need to be told? Read a science textbook.
#5b2  
#5b3 Try *google*
#5tl;dl


P.S.: Probably you are too ignorant, so it seems to be necessary to point out: Even if gayness was a personal choice, its still no justification for discrminitation. The fact that *good christians* like to discrminiate against all sort of people who are different (and in many cases it turns out they are part of the same group/minority they so often scorn) from them tells us more about christianity than about minorities discriminated against.
If personal choices were a good reason to discriminate against then i wouldnt sell you my cakes, because your favourite colour is pink (god, i hate pink, its so gay, and i bet you are a closeted gay because you love pink).

(December 28, 2018 at 10:56 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(December 28, 2018 at 8:32 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: #2 So discriminate against the Christian baker and his or her right to self-determination?
#4 The baker has the right to believe as they choose.  Why should someone else's lifestyle dictate that? 
#5 Sometimes there are biological explanations, sometimes it is environmental and/or personal choice.
#5b1 False analogy.  Height is determined biologically and has nothing to do with morality.  Sexual choices can be immoral. 
#5b2 Same illogical conclusion as already stated.
#5b3 Who is the determining factor of who's a "bigot"?  Again, we all have the right to self-determination regardless of what demographic we fall under.
#5tl False analogy.  First part is presumptive, second part is consequential.

#2 The baker discriminating gays is discrimination. Preventing the baker form discriminating isnt discrminiation. Too bad his feelings/beliefs got hurt in the process of not letting him discriminate. After all nobody forced him to believe any different.
#4 Did somebody deny the baker to believe gays going to hell while he bakes cakes for them? Too bad his feelings got hurt in the process of preventing him form discriminating, but at least his right to believe was untouched.
#5 Personal choice? Please provide evidence. Tangible one preferred, not the crap you like to accept according to the obvious low bar you set for yourself.
#5b1 gayness is not a choice. How often do you need to be told? Read a science textbook.
#5b2  
#5b3 Try *google*
#5tl;dl


P.S.: Probably you are too ignorant, so it seems to be necessary to point out: Even if gayness was a personal choice, its still no justification for discrminitation. The fact that *good christians* like to discrminiate against all sort of people who are different (and in many cases it turns out they are part of the same group/minority they so often scorn) from them tells us more about christianity than about minorities discriminated against.
If personal choices were a good reason to discriminate against then i wouldnt sell you my cakes, because your favourite colour is pink (god, i hate pink, its so gay, and i bet you are a closeted gay because you love pink).

Nope, you're making up more nonsense.  Also, in June 2018, our Supreme Court ruled in favor of the baker.