(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I prayed to Jesus last night that this thread would die, but it didn’t.  Guess he’s not real after all.

It is His will that it continue then.  He's not a wish master.

(January 6, 2019 at 10:06 pm)CDF47 Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I prayed to Jesus last night that this thread would die, but it didn’t.  Guess he’s not real after all.

It is His will that it continue then.  He's not a wish master.

I think it is his will that he does not exist. Further more he thought it would be hilarious for you to still believe in him. He washed his hands of your stupidity before having his own will done.

(January 3, 2019 at 11:32 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

Quote:More times than not, you're going to hear about logical fallacies in heated debates and discussion.  As far as casual conversation when someone is just sharing, I don't think it's implied too much, but I suppose it can be.

So, a logical fallacy is simply an error in reasoning.  The nature of the discussion being had is irrelevant. If someone makes an error in the reasoning they used to reach a conclusion, they have committed a logical fallacy whether they are on stage doing a formal debate, or arguing with their mom in the kitchen about politics.  You are correct though, that just because someone commits a fallacy that doesn't necessarily mean the conclusion is false.  Assuming that would be committing the Fallacy Fallacy.

Quote:As mentioned, I understand where you are coming from though.  One part does not equal the whole.  That was a matter from my childhood, so figure about 20 years later, and many of the experiences in between as contributing to my belief.

Understood. And, I didn't mean to imply that I thought the entire basis of your belief was because doctors prayed for your father, and he got better. 

Quote:I guess you could call the "breaking point" some years later.  As I mentioned, I was working with people with severe mental health diagnoses.  As an avid reader who loves to study anything and everything, I become curious about a common claim the clients were making.  Many assumed a demonic presence, so I became curious about the whole idea.  So outside of work I became to delve into understanding it all both objectively from what I knew already, and subjectively by evaluating accounts and reading about various perspectives on it. I wouldn't call myself a skeptic in regards to any of it, but someone who is very analytical in study.  So during this process, I had some weird, I'll just called then "supernatural manifestations" around me and their actions were very deliberate.  I think the best thing to describe it would be "horrific."  I remember things like feeling something biting me in my sleep and I woke up with the sensation of pain and nothing there, I had electrical devices going off that definitely weren't on such as alarms and the stereo playing music, and some other really unusual manifestations going on.  It was probably the scariest thing I've ever experienced in my life, and I'm not someone who scares easy, but this literally had me trembling.  As such, that's what really got me searching.  The obvious place for me to go was church.  I befriended a pastor and he knew what was going on from what I shared.  I sat down with him one morning and he shared something rather peculiar, but I listened.  He said God had provided him with a word the previous night and to share it, and he did.  It was in 1 Cor 12:3 where it says that nobody can confess "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit.  In all my life I had never experienced such a moment of stubbornness, and very specifically making me not want to speak those words, but there was also something else going on that I didn't understand either, another presence, so I went from extreme stubbornness to trying to speak those words,but I couldn't do it. At the same time I about hit the floor, and the pastor could see I was struggling, so he prayed over me. I will never forget that moment. Something literally let go of me and I could speak those words "Jesus is Lord."  That's when it all clicked.

Let me ask you here, how can you tell the difference between these things coming from a god, and these things coming from your own mind? Is there any reliable way to distinguish one cause from the other?  When you were working with your patients, and they told you Satan was talking to them, how could you determine if it was really Satan, or the hallucinations of a paranoid schizophrenic?  If a demon was trying to send you some important message, why would it do something so ambiguous and mundane as make electronics go off?  I mean, it's not like that doesn't happen all the time in the real world, for completely natural reasons.  My kids toys go off all the time. 

Quote:Some years later I can still remember it all vividly, but my life is also very different.  I don't worry about manifestations, and I know who Jesus is.  As such, I live a normal life and try to keep Jesus as the foundation.   Sometimes I fail, but it's still good.  Back to that state of not fearing things, but also having a clearer understanding of what this all means.  Someone will probably tell me I can't prove those experiences and they would be right. I can't show someone that time in my life.  But nobody I knew then would even dare say something happened that didn't change me in some way, and very rapidly, and I'll go to my grave telling that point of my life just like that.  That was the day I became a Christian.  May 1, 2007 In light of all of it, there is one scripture that guides how I view life.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
I realized that even the worst things can be used to find truth, and as such they serve a purpose.  I might not understand completely, but it gives me a brighter outlook on life. I think why it happened like that was because I was seeking.  I just wanted to understand something so I started looking with no certain expectations as to what I would fine.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Prov 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

It seems like you have accepted a lot based on feelings and experiences that you cannot (for good reason) share first hand with anyone else. Such is the nature of subjective experience, but I'm just wondering how reliable that method is for determining truth.  I've noticed in passing that you've been debating other members on topics like evolution and abiogenesis.  I'm left wondering, why is it that you demand a far stricter body of evidence for these things than you do for your belief in god?

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 4:36 pm)pocaracas Wrote: It's nice that it's all mostly self-consistent, isn't it?
But one can see it from a different perspective and think of it, instead of a reverse cameo, more as a retcon. Under this view, Jesus is a figure that appears in the literature to integrate and expand on the ancient (by then) notion of the Zedek guy.
Possibly written by Essene-related folk - I mean, would you associate the writers of the NT more with the Pharisees, Saducees or Essenes, if those were the only 3 options available?

Also, on a map, find Qumran, where the dead sea scrolls were found. See how that is very close to a possible route from Jerusalem to Damascus. Tell me if Paul could have come across the Essenes on that famous road.


And lastly, tell me your theory as to why this group of people so closely related to the philosophies of christianity is featured exactly ZERO times in all the writings in the bible.

Those are some good questions.  You'll have to give me just a bit of slack because some of this I would have to do a little bit of digging to accurately answer them.

- It tends to be consistent in and of itself, but I also believe there is a consistency in practice too. Sometimes we can get caught up in the fine details that we overlook the principles behind something.  If I actually go out and follow those practices, what happens?  Well, when I don't, a lot of times it becomes problematic.  Not controlling anger or even going to sleep while angry is not a good thing, and it clearly tells us these things.  But when your focal point becomes loving God and one another, then it becomes more like being in a family.   Of course we can always look at things from a different angle.  That is true even of the Bible.  You can read about bad things happening, and even followers of Christ making these mistakes.  David is a good example of this.  I'm sure you know the story of David and Bathsheba.  He was king, sought after another man's wife, tried to cover his tracks but God knew all along, yet God calls David a man after "His own heart."  It wasn't about the mistakes David made, but how he self-evaluated and allowed for correction.   Sometimes he needed a reminder, but he always got there.  After the event with Bathsheba, Nathan was sent to him and he told the story (2 Samuel 12) of a rich man with many lambs and a poor man with one lamb who his had raised and always loved.  A travel came to see the rich man, and instead of taking one of his own lambs, he took the poor man's lamb to feed him, rather than one of his many. The indication is that David took the story as literal, then he demanded justice for the poor man.  Then with the help of Nathan, it was made clear that David was that man.  This is what changed David's course.  He realized he did something wrong, and once it was clear to him, he did a hard reset and got back on track.  That is also what is expected of us.  It's less about the mistake, and more about being on track with who we knew we should be.  The Bible tells us that once we are forgiveness, God literally forgets.  It describes him as "casting our sins as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12)."

The story of David seems to me to be a perfect example of a very normal man who is then shown what a conscience is... perhaps the story is a bit romanticized, but take out the god part, or replace it with a wise man, an elder, David's father, or uncle, or teacher, and the result could very well be the same, no?

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - Had to look up the word "retcon." 

That's why I left a link on that word.
I know that most people aren't savvy of comic book/scifi lingo... but it does fit remarkably well with some parts of religious text of old.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: You could perceive it that way.  There are always different ways to look at something.  There are even times we simply don't know all the details, and a guess is the best we can do.  In light of, you can always look for more information and even stay neutral on a specific detail.  That's the thing with learning, there's always more information out there.  Sometimes it's good information that leads us to something, and other times it's bad information that sets us backwards.   To debate against it being a retcon, I would have to admit that I don't have adequate knowledge at this time to do so, but I don't find it likely that it would've been based on the beliefs of the Essenes, since they were known to mesh together different beliefs.  However, they were known for being analytical, so I could see them having manuscripts. I don't have enough information to state anything conclusively though, so I'll stick to "I dunno."

Wow...
You just became my third favorite theist on this site!    
Not many are willing to say "I don't know" like that.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If I just had to assume, then it definitely wouldn't be the Sadducees based on their view of resurrection.  Pharisees would be a definite because we know at least Paul was one and also the son of a Pharisee.  Essenes not likely since they allowed for elements of mysticism.  There are several instances in the Bible where it may be indicating Essenes, but it doesn't specifically mention them by name.  For example in Col 2:18 it talks about not being caught up in worshiping angels with those who do.

Yes, precisely. Why would it not mention them by name, not even once, in your opinion?
We can easily see John the Baptist as an Essene, right?

I can hazard a guess as to why the Essenes are never mentioned... Because many of them would later become Christians. And, if Chrstianity is seen as a progression from a previous state of affairs where the philosophy was already mostly there, then the significance and influence of Jesus becomes diminished.
If the Essenes are not a part of the history, then Christians are immediately seen as an overwhelming mass of converts in a very short time - a clear sign of a miracle, of the veracity of the stories, etc...
Just spread the word that this new fellow, Christ, is the Zedek from the old stories.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: We have groups today that consider themselves to be Essenes.  The nature of it all is rather eccentric and kind of a mix of many different ideologies and mysticism.  Of course the ancient Essenes ceased.  When I read about them more though, it kinda reminds me of that order in Game of Thrones.  I don't know if you have watched it, but anyway there is an order that seemingly means well, but they have very eccentric ways of going about it.  Anyway, probably irrelevant to this.  Here's the reference to Paul being a Pharisee.

Ah... yes...

(January 6, 2019 at 11:05 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, a logical fallacy is simply an error in reasoning.  The nature of the discussion being had is irrelevant. If someone makes an error in the reasoning they used to reach a conclusion, they have committed a logical fallacy whether they are on stage doing a formal debate, or arguing with their mom in the kitchen about politics.  You are correct though, that just because someone commits a fallacy that doesn't necessarily mean the conclusion is false.  Assuming that would be committing the Fallacy Fallacy.

Quote:As mentioned, I understand where you are coming from though.  One part does not equal the whole.  That was a matter from my childhood, so figure about 20 years later, and many of the experiences in between as contributing to my belief.

Understood. And, I didn't mean to imply that I thought the entire basis of your belief was because doctors prayed for your father, and he got better. 

Quote:I guess you could call the "breaking point" some years later.  As I mentioned, I was working with people with severe mental health diagnoses.  As an avid reader who loves to study anything and everything, I become curious about a common claim the clients were making.  Many assumed a demonic presence, so I became curious about the whole idea.  So outside of work I became to delve into understanding it all both objectively from what I knew already, and subjectively by evaluating accounts and reading about various perspectives on it. I wouldn't call myself a skeptic in regards to any of it, but someone who is very analytical in study.  So during this process, I had some weird, I'll just called then "supernatural manifestations" around me and their actions were very deliberate.  I think the best thing to describe it would be "horrific."  I remember things like feeling something biting me in my sleep and I woke up with the sensation of pain and nothing there, I had electrical devices going off that definitely weren't on such as alarms and the stereo playing music, and some other really unusual manifestations going on.  It was probably the scariest thing I've ever experienced in my life, and I'm not someone who scares easy, but this literally had me trembling.  As such, that's what really got me searching.  The obvious place for me to go was church.  I befriended a pastor and he knew what was going on from what I shared.  I sat down with him one morning and he shared something rather peculiar, but I listened.  He said God had provided him with a word the previous night and to share it, and he did.  It was in 1 Cor 12:3 where it says that nobody can confess "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit.  In all my life I had never experienced such a moment of stubbornness, and very specifically making me not want to speak those words, but there was also something else going on that I didn't understand either, another presence, so I went from extreme stubbornness to trying to speak those words,but I couldn't do it. At the same time I about hit the floor, and the pastor could see I was struggling, so he prayed over me. I will never forget that moment. Something literally let go of me and I could speak those words "Jesus is Lord."  That's when it all clicked.

Let me ask you here, how can you tell the difference between these things coming from a god, and these things coming from your own mind? Is there any reliable way to distinguish one cause from the other?  When you were working with your patients, and they told you Satan was talking to them, how could you determine if it was really Satan, or the hallucinations of a paranoid schizophrenic?  If a demon was trying to send you some important message, why would it do something so ambiguous and mundane as make electronics go off?  I mean, it's not like that doesn't happen all the time in the real world, for completely natural reasons.  My kids toys go off all the time. 

Quote:Some years later I can still remember it all vividly, but my life is also very different.  I don't worry about manifestations, and I know who Jesus is.  As such, I live a normal life and try to keep Jesus as the foundation.   Sometimes I fail, but it's still good.  Back to that state of not fearing things, but also having a clearer understanding of what this all means.  Someone will probably tell me I can't prove those experiences and they would be right. I can't show someone that time in my life.  But nobody I knew then would even dare say something happened that didn't change me in some way, and very rapidly, and I'll go to my grave telling that point of my life just like that.  That was the day I became a Christian.  May 1, 2007 In light of all of it, there is one scripture that guides how I view life.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
I realized that even the worst things can be used to find truth, and as such they serve a purpose.  I might not understand completely, but it gives me a brighter outlook on life. I think why it happened like that was because I was seeking.  I just wanted to understand something so I started looking with no certain expectations as to what I would fine.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Prov 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

It seems like you have accepted a lot based on feelings and experiences that you cannot (for good reason) share first hand with anyone else. Such is the nature of subjective experience, but I'm just wondering how reliable that method is for determining truth.  I've noticed in passing that you've been debating other members on topics like evolution and abiogenesis.  I'm left wondering, why is it that you demand a far stricter body of evidence for these things than you do for your belief in god?

-I don't think it was "mundane."  Something literally bit me and I will never forget the pain because it was there when I woke up.  I could also feel something gripped to me pulling away afterwards.  That felt kinda like a jagged fingers letting go, but it was much worse than that, but that's the close as I could come to describing it.  The bite felt like a deep dull pain, but there was no wound.  I am probably the world's best sleeper (slight exaggeration).  Since as long as I can remember, I have always been a still sleeper. How I go to sleep is how I wake up. I remember my mom remarking on occasion how my brother and I were very different.  When he was a baby, the vacuum cleaner would cause him to wake up crying, and for it was probably just humming me to sleep all the more.  Anyway, somewhat irrelevant. It was what it was.  As I said, there's no way to prove it, but I think I was being taunted.  I don't fully understand why, but maybe someday.  Aside from that, I've moved on with life.

-Feelings and experiences are part of life. Sometimes life is about logic, something we have feelings and emotions.  None are fully adequate on their own in describing and determining life.  When they work together, then we have a fuller picture of understanding things.  With experiences, it's often hard to share beyond word, especially if someone wasn't there.  I can't project a past experience into the mind of someone else.  At best I can attempt to describe something. 

-  Abiogenesis and evolution aren't problematic for me.  It's the understanding of what they are and aren't that I take issue with.  If someone wants to use them as an explanation, then that's their choice, but to treat certain aspects as conclusive, especially to suggest "no God" then it would seem relevant that such claims should be substantiated.  If they don't want to, then no big deal. But I will not likely get an explanation if I don't ask.   Also, I never suggested that I should provide less evidence.  But if we can't agree on how God is defined or what would be acceptable evidence, then there's no way to provide evidence for such objectively.   One exception, someone said a "supernatural stick" would be evidence.  I dunno how to show someone a supernatural stick, and up until that point I can't say I've even considered one.  But you know, if I ever find one, I'll be sure to try and share its existence.

- Please keep in mind that some of what is said to other people is supposed to be silly in nature. When people pick at me and I pick back, then don't take it to heart, nor should anybody else.  If I  know it bothers someone, then I'll stop.

---

(January 7, 2019 at 4:39 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Those are some good questions.  You'll have to give me just a bit of slack because some of this I would have to do a little bit of digging to accurately answer them.

- It tends to be consistent in and of itself, but I also believe there is a consistency in practice too. Sometimes we can get caught up in the fine details that we overlook the principles behind something.  If I actually go out and follow those practices, what happens?  Well, when I don't, a lot of times it becomes problematic.  Not controlling anger or even going to sleep while angry is not a good thing, and it clearly tells us these things.  But when your focal point becomes loving God and one another, then it becomes more like being in a family.   Of course we can always look at things from a different angle.  That is true even of the Bible.  You can read about bad things happening, and even followers of Christ making these mistakes.  David is a good example of this.  I'm sure you know the story of David and Bathsheba.  He was king, sought after another man's wife, tried to cover his tracks but God knew all along, yet God calls David a man after "His own heart."  It wasn't about the mistakes David made, but how he self-evaluated and allowed for correction.   Sometimes he needed a reminder, but he always got there.  After the event with Bathsheba, Nathan was sent to him and he told the story (2 Samuel 12) of a rich man with many lambs and a poor man with one lamb who his had raised and always loved.  A travel came to see the rich man, and instead of taking one of his own lambs, he took the poor man's lamb to feed him, rather than one of his many. The indication is that David took the story as literal, then he demanded justice for the poor man.  Then with the help of Nathan, it was made clear that David was that man.  This is what changed David's course.  He realized he did something wrong, and once it was clear to him, he did a hard reset and got back on track.  That is also what is expected of us.  It's less about the mistake, and more about being on track with who we knew we should be.  The Bible tells us that once we are forgiveness, God literally forgets.  It describes him as "casting our sins as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12)."

The story of David seems to me to be a perfect example of a very normal man who is then shown what a conscience is... perhaps the story is a bit romanticized, but take out the god part, or replace it with a wise man, an elder, David's father, or uncle, or teacher, and the result could very well be the same, no?

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - Had to look up the word "retcon." 

That's why I left a link on that word.
I know that most people aren't savvy of comic book/scifi lingo... but it does fit remarkably well with some parts of religious text of old.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: You could perceive it that way.  There are always different ways to look at something.  There are even times we simply don't know all the details, and a guess is the best we can do.  In light of, you can always look for more information and even stay neutral on a specific detail.  That's the thing with learning, there's always more information out there.  Sometimes it's good information that leads us to something, and other times it's bad information that sets us backwards.   To debate against it being a retcon, I would have to admit that I don't have adequate knowledge at this time to do so, but I don't find it likely that it would've been based on the beliefs of the Essenes, since they were known to mesh together different beliefs.  However, they were known for being analytical, so I could see them having manuscripts. I don't have enough information to state anything conclusively though, so I'll stick to "I dunno."

Wow...
You just became my third favorite theist on this site!    
Not many are willing to say "I don't know" like that.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If I just had to assume, then it definitely wouldn't be the Sadducees based on their view of resurrection.  Pharisees would be a definite because we know at least Paul was one and also the son of a Pharisee.  Essenes not likely since they allowed for elements of mysticism.  There are several instances in the Bible where it may be indicating Essenes, but it doesn't specifically mention them by name.  For example in Col 2:18 it talks about not being caught up in worshiping angels with those who do.

Yes, precisely. Why would it not mention them by name, not even once, in your opinion?
We can easily see John the Baptist as an Essene, right?

I can hazard a guess as to why the Essenes are never mentioned... Because many of them would later become Christians. And, if Chrstianity is seen as a progression from a previous state of affairs where the philosophy was already mostly there, then the significance and influence of Jesus becomes diminished.
If the Essenes are not a part of the history, then Christians are immediately seen as an overwhelming mass of converts in a very short time - a clear sign of a miracle, of the veracity of the stories, etc...
Just spread the word that this new fellow, Christ, is the Zedek from the old stories.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: We have groups today that consider themselves to be Essenes.  The nature of it all is rather eccentric and kind of a mix of many different ideologies and mysticism.  Of course the ancient Essenes ceased.  When I read about them more though, it kinda reminds me of that order in Game of Thrones.  I don't know if you have watched it, but anyway there is an order that seemingly means well, but they have very eccentric ways of going about it.  Anyway, probably irrelevant to this.  Here's the reference to Paul being a Pharisee.

Ah... yes...

Hey, I like you just because of who you are.  You challenge me not only to consider your thoughts, but my own.

In truth, I don't know more than I do know, but I'm good with that.  When one loves knowledge, the universe is gold to them.  I'm just a happy miner moving along with it.

Anyway, back to the Essenes, and I'm just going to briefly comment since I'm getting ready to crash.   I think when it mentions "worshiping angels" that it's reflecting them, but as you stated, it's not conclusive.  But of the major sects, I don't know of too many, especially in that region, that would've been practicing that, as to have it brought up.  A lot of what the Essenes believed had to do with mysticism and other beliefs meshed together.  I don't want to go out of my way to invalidate them, but am just implying that it was likely.  If you know of an alternative, then feel free to suggest.  Don't feel like you need to, but just curious so throwing it out there.

Yep, the High Sparrow.  Couldn't remember what he was called.  Then there were the guys with the marked foreheads that were creepy too.  I had people fussing at me over the years for not watching GoT, so finally went through it last year during Season 7.   They did a lot of things right when making that show.  I think it's because they took humans and found unique ways to make them relevant in both our world and their world, so as to make them understood and even endearing at time.

Dogs and cats are out cold.  I guess they're telling me something.  Of course the dogs think I'm a piece of furniture so they'll get up just so they can flop down on me.  When I got them, I didn't think I was going to end up with a couple 60 lbs bricks to place on top of me, which is exactly what they do if I try to sleep anywhere near them.

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Hey, I like you just because of who you are.  You challenge me not only to consider your thoughts, but my own.

In truth, I don't know more than I do know, but I'm good with that.  When one loves knowledge, the universe is gold to them.  I'm just a happy miner moving along with it.

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Anyway, back to the Essenes, and I'm just going to briefly comment since I'm getting ready to crash.   I think when it mentions "worshiping angels" that it's reflecting them, but as you stated, it's not conclusive.  But of the major sects, I don't know of too many, especially in that region, that would've been practicing that, as to have it brought up.  A lot of what the Essenes believed had to do with mysticism and other beliefs meshed together.  I don't want to go out of my way to invalidate them, but am just implying that it was likely.  If you know of an alternative, then feel free to suggest.  Don't feel like you need to, but just curious so throwing it out there.

No, I know of no alternative...
The Pharisees had their temple and the people did attend the services, I guess.
And then there were people getting baptized by folk from a different sect... the one I'm guessing was very close to the Essenes.
How many people belonged to each group, exactly, who can tell?

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Yep, the High Sparrow.  Couldn't remember what he was called.  Then there were the guys with the marked foreheads that were creepy too.  I had people fussing at me over the years for not watching GoT, so finally went through it last year during Season 7.   They did a lot of things right when making that show.  I think it's because they took humans and found unique ways to make them relevant in both our world and their world, so as to make them understood and even endearing at time.

The writer of the original books claims to have been following a bit in the style of Tolkien, who is well known to have produced a whole mythology that would somehow fit into the known history of Britain. And, in GoT, Westeros is kind of like medieval Europe... with a bit of magic sprinkled on top, just as the druids would have liked!
The guys with the marked foreheads were the sparrows, that's why their leader was the High Sparrow.

"They call themselves "Sparrows". Bloody fanatics! Religion has its place, of course, but to a certain point."
―Ser Kevan Lannister to Cersei Lannister

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Dogs and cats are out cold.  I guess they're telling me something.  Of course the dogs think I'm a piece of furniture so they'll get up just so they can flop down on me.  When I got them, I didn't think I was going to end up with a couple 60 lbs bricks to place on top of me, which is exactly what they do if I try to sleep anywhere near them.

LOL.
Living all my life in a flat, my dad (and me, too) always considered it cruel to keep an animal so enclosed, so I never had any. Freedom!!!

Still waiting for your answer, CDF.....

(January 2, 2019 at 11:03 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(January 2, 2019 at 2:23 pm)CDF47 Wrote: Yes, DNA is a functional code that programs an assembly line construction of amino acids to parts which are then formed into proteins by a barrel shaped machine.  The protein construct is then transported to the cell to perform its function.  This is manufacturing engineering 101 at a nano-scale.  This did not come about by chance alone which is all natural causes are.

This is nothing more than an assertion.  Nobody is disputing that DNA and life are amazing.  What we dispute is that you have reasons or evidence that it could not have come about by natural means.  And for the umpteenth time, saying that it came about by chance alone, and that this is all that natural causes are is a lie and a straw man.  Natural selection isn't random.  If you can't stop lying about this, then I'm going to simply keep pointing out that it's a lie, and that you're aware it's a lie, which makes you nothing more than crassly dishonest.  Regardless, you have provided an assertion, and an assertion is neither evidence nor a reason.  I specifically asked you for reasons or evidence.  If you can't tell the difference between an assertion and reasons or evidence, then it's obvious why you think you've provided evidence, because you don't know what evidence is.  Your assertion cuts no ice.

So I'll ask you again.  Do you have any reasons or evidence for your belief that DNA could not have arisen through natural means?

(January 7, 2019 at 9:56 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Hey, I like you just because of who you are.  You challenge me not only to consider your thoughts, but my own.

In truth, I don't know more than I do know, but I'm good with that.  When one loves knowledge, the universe is gold to them.  I'm just a happy miner moving along with it.

 

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Anyway, back to the Essenes, and I'm just going to briefly comment since I'm getting ready to crash.   I think when it mentions "worshiping angels" that it's reflecting them, but as you stated, it's not conclusive.  But of the major sects, I don't know of too many, especially in that region, that would've been practicing that, as to have it brought up.  A lot of what the Essenes believed had to do with mysticism and other beliefs meshed together.  I don't want to go out of my way to invalidate them, but am just implying that it was likely.  If you know of an alternative, then feel free to suggest.  Don't feel like you need to, but just curious so throwing it out there.

No, I know of no alternative...
The Pharisees had their temple and the people did attend the services, I guess.
And then there were people getting baptized by folk from a different sect... the one I'm guessing was very close to the Essenes.
How many people belonged to each group, exactly, who can tell?

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Yep, the High Sparrow.  Couldn't remember what he was called.  Then there were the guys with the marked foreheads that were creepy too.  I had people fussing at me over the years for not watching GoT, so finally went through it last year during Season 7.   They did a lot of things right when making that show.  I think it's because they took humans and found unique ways to make them relevant in both our world and their world, so as to make them understood and even endearing at time.

The writer of the original books claims to have been following a bit in the style of Tolkien, who is well known to have produced a whole mythology that would somehow fit into the known history of Britain. And, in GoT, Westeros is kind of like medieval Europe... with a bit of magic sprinkled on top, just as the druids would have liked!
The guys with the marked foreheads were the sparrows, that's why their leader was the High Sparrow.

   "They call themselves "Sparrows". Bloody fanatics! Religion has its place, of course, but to a certain point."
   ―Ser Kevan Lannister to Cersei Lannister

(January 7, 2019 at 4:43 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Dogs and cats are out cold.  I guess they're telling me something.  Of course the dogs think I'm a piece of furniture so they'll get up just so they can flop down on me.  When I got them, I didn't think I was going to end up with a couple 60 lbs bricks to place on top of me, which is exactly what they do if I try to sleep anywhere near them.

LOL.
Living all my life in a flat, my dad (and me, too) always considered it cruel to keep an animal so enclosed, so I never had any. Freedom!!!

Of course they were called "sparrows."  You would think I would've been able to come to that conclusion on my own, but just going to blame 3 am.

Don't know the number of Pharisee and Essenes, but believe the latter was more common.

Got my dogs the same day I moved into this home. They tend to occupy more space over the course of a day than me, except for going through that space to pick up after them.  Mess after mess, but that's one of the reasons for having them.  It keeps me responsible for something. 

If the flat is small, it might not be good for some pets.  Always wondered if animals like goldfish go insane from living in small bowl.

(January 6, 2019 at 10:54 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 10:06 pm)CDF47 Wrote: It is His will that it continue then.  He's not a wish master.

I think it is his will that he does not exist.   Further more he thought it would be hilarious for you to still believe in him.  He washed his hands of your stupidity before having his own will done.

The reality is, He does exist.

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(January 7, 2019 at 4:39 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Those are some good questions.  You'll have to give me just a bit of slack because some of this I would have to do a little bit of digging to accurately answer them.

- It tends to be consistent in and of itself, but I also believe there is a consistency in practice too. Sometimes we can get caught up in the fine details that we overlook the principles behind something.  If I actually go out and follow those practices, what happens?  Well, when I don't, a lot of times it becomes problematic.  Not controlling anger or even going to sleep while angry is not a good thing, and it clearly tells us these things.  But when your focal point becomes loving God and one another, then it becomes more like being in a family.   Of course we can always look at things from a different angle.  That is true even of the Bible.  You can read about bad things happening, and even followers of Christ making these mistakes.  David is a good example of this.  I'm sure you know the story of David and Bathsheba.  He was king, sought after another man's wife, tried to cover his tracks but God knew all along, yet God calls David a man after "His own heart."  It wasn't about the mistakes David made, but how he self-evaluated and allowed for correction.   Sometimes he needed a reminder, but he always got there.  After the event with Bathsheba, Nathan was sent to him and he told the story (2 Samuel 12) of a rich man with many lambs and a poor man with one lamb who his had raised and always loved.  A travel came to see the rich man, and instead of taking one of his own lambs, he took the poor man's lamb to feed him, rather than one of his many. The indication is that David took the story as literal, then he demanded justice for the poor man.  Then with the help of Nathan, it was made clear that David was that man.  This is what changed David's course.  He realized he did something wrong, and once it was clear to him, he did a hard reset and got back on track.  That is also what is expected of us.  It's less about the mistake, and more about being on track with who we knew we should be.  The Bible tells us that once we are forgiveness, God literally forgets.  It describes him as "casting our sins as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12)."

The story of David seems to me to be a perfect example of a very normal man who is then shown what a conscience is... perhaps the story is a bit romanticized, but take out the god part, or replace it with a wise man, an elder, David's father, or uncle, or teacher, and the result could very well be the same, no?

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - Had to look up the word "retcon." 

That's why I left a link on that word.
I know that most people aren't savvy of comic book/scifi lingo... but it does fit remarkably well with some parts of religious text of old.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: You could perceive it that way.  There are always different ways to look at something.  There are even times we simply don't know all the details, and a guess is the best we can do.  In light of, you can always look for more information and even stay neutral on a specific detail.  That's the thing with learning, there's always more information out there.  Sometimes it's good information that leads us to something, and other times it's bad information that sets us backwards.   To debate against it being a retcon, I would have to admit that I don't have adequate knowledge at this time to do so, but I don't find it likely that it would've been based on the beliefs of the Essenes, since they were known to mesh together different beliefs.  However, they were known for being analytical, so I could see them having manuscripts. I don't have enough information to state anything conclusively though, so I'll stick to "I dunno."

Wow...
You just became my third favorite theist on this site!    
Not many are willing to say "I don't know" like that.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If I just had to assume, then it definitely wouldn't be the Sadducees based on their view of resurrection.  Pharisees would be a definite because we know at least Paul was one and also the son of a Pharisee.  Essenes not likely since they allowed for elements of mysticism.  There are several instances in the Bible where it may be indicating Essenes, but it doesn't specifically mention them by name.  For example in Col 2:18 it talks about not being caught up in worshiping angels with those who do.

Yes, precisely. Why would it not mention them by name, not even once, in your opinion?
We can easily see John the Baptist as an Essene, right?

I can hazard a guess as to why the Essenes are never mentioned... Because many of them would later become Christians. And, if Chrstianity is seen as a progression from a previous state of affairs where the philosophy was already mostly there, then the significance and influence of Jesus becomes diminished.
If the Essenes are not a part of the history, then Christians are immediately seen as an overwhelming mass of converts in a very short time - a clear sign of a miracle, of the veracity of the stories, etc...
Just spread the word that this new fellow, Christ, is the Zedek from the old stories.

(January 6, 2019 at 9:50 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: We have groups today that consider themselves to be Essenes.  The nature of it all is rather eccentric and kind of a mix of many different ideologies and mysticism.  Of course the ancient Essenes ceased.  When I read about them more though, it kinda reminds me of that order in Game of Thrones.  I don't know if you have watched it, but anyway there is an order that seemingly means well, but they have very eccentric ways of going about it.  Anyway, probably irrelevant to this.  Here's the reference to Paul being a Pharisee.

Ah... yes...

Am I in your top 3, LOL?

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(January 7, 2019 at 10:40 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Still waiting for your answer, CDF.....

(January 2, 2019 at 11:03 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: This is nothing more than an assertion.  Nobody is disputing that DNA and life are amazing.  What we dispute is that you have reasons or evidence that it could not have come about by natural means.  And for the umpteenth time, saying that it came about by chance alone, and that this is all that natural causes are is a lie and a straw man.  Natural selection isn't random.  If you can't stop lying about this, then I'm going to simply keep pointing out that it's a lie, and that you're aware it's a lie, which makes you nothing more than crassly dishonest.  Regardless, you have provided an assertion, and an assertion is neither evidence nor a reason.  I specifically asked you for reasons or evidence.  If you can't tell the difference between an assertion and reasons or evidence, then it's obvious why you think you've provided evidence, because you don't know what evidence is.  Your assertion cuts no ice.

So I'll ask you again.  Do you have any reasons or evidence for your belief that DNA could not have arisen through natural means?

The proof is in the information properties of DNA.

(January 6, 2019 at 3:26 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 9:32 am)Amarok Wrote: Got nothing to do with me

You said it, so it has everything to do with you.  If not, is there someone else who should be responsible for your words?

No the fact of the matter is it doesn't