(January 10, 2019 at 9:48 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote:

(January 10, 2019 at 5:11 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Ahhh, I apologize if I did that. Was unintentional.

Sometimes I use a laptop and brush the touchpad wrong and it does derpy things.

It wasn't you.  It was Thoreauvian.  He credited you with something I said, which I doubt you'd want.

Sorry if I messed up.  

@Jehanne and

(January 10, 2019 at 3:35 am)Gae Bolga Wrote:

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(January 9, 2019 at 10:54 pm)tackattack Wrote: How am I trapped by fatalistic, divine foreknowledge?
I believe Coercion negates responsibility. I believe people sin willfully. I believe it is in their nature to sin and yet their desire can be to overcome that sinful nature. I don't see any of that as contradictory, but I'm open to refutation.

Fatalism is the notion that things are going to happen exactly according to some x.  You could go left or right..but..ultimately, you'll end up where you were always going to.  Fate is all.

So, people willfully sin..okay.  It's their nature...okay.  They can overcome their natures (dodgy, lol..but ok).  So what?  God knows who's going to heaven and hell before they're even born.  That's your fate, and fate is all.  To change your fate would be to disprove gods omniscience.  We perceive more choice in this than we actually have, lol.  There's no proving omni-god wrong by being on his pre-natal shitlist and then...choosing to overcome your "sinful nature", and ending up going to heaven.  Omni-god either knows that this would always happen, or it doesn't (and thus..isn't, as in, isn't omni god at all).  You were fated to hell(or heaven), or you weren't.  There would be no better demonstration of the reality of fatalism than a being which knew everyone's fate.  

Additionally...if you believe that coercion negates responsibility, then you need to have a chat with the author of this world and our "natures"....and the salvatory plan.  This is why (and how) such gods trap their adherents into contradictory rounds of fatalism while shifting responsibility to the lowly human worm who most assuredly does not and cannot see the train coming, nor could he jump off the tracks even if he did....and supposing that he could and did by being shown a train hitting him...was he not coerced then, too....and was that always going to happen?

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I think I understand fatalism now. Fixed inescapable events is the short version. I don't believe I'm fatalistic. Fatalists believe they have a future, but no hope. A God that exists outside of time and is omniscient would have a fatalistic view. I have neither of those perspectives, so while my choice might be predestined, it's not any less free, that destiny is unknown to me. Without time we cannot feel, think or do. Therefore, time is a necessary part of volition within our power and perspective.

Additionally, informing isn't the same as coercion. I don't believe God is our puppet master, but that He allows us the freedom to explore His creation and holds us accountable. Crap- I gtg back to work

Quote:I believe people sin willfully. I believe it is in their nature to sin.

Generally this sort of thing is based on the flawed religious conception of a "fall" (which is said to have happened in the Garden of Eden).
There is no evidence anywhere that there ever was a preternatural state of perfection, from which humans "fell".
Science knows a lot about human origins and the origins of a lot of nature. There is no boundary found in any of the evolutionary lines that there ever was
any sort of radical change from perfection to "fallen".

These ancient notions are not only false, but no longer useful. The concept of "sin" is outmoded.
People do things, and do not do things, which they may mistake being in their long and short term best interest.
The idea their actions somehow "offend" a deity (which actually would not be possible ... a perfect deity could not be "offended") is childish nonsense.

I never said there was a preternatural state of perfection. There was a preternatural state with volition living in a place of perfection. It chose sinfulness which continues till this day. Sinfulness doesn't separate God from us, because he can't be offended, it separates us from Him. You're entitled to your opinions that it is outdated, childish and non-sense.

At work.

Sorry for stepping in but...

Hasn't it kind of been demonstrated that said work is outdated, childishly simplistic as well as containg quite a large amount on nonsense?

(January 10, 2019 at 11:23 am)tackattack Wrote: I never said there was a preternatural state of perfection. There was a preternatural state with volition living in a place of perfection. It chose sinfulness which continues till this day. Sinfulness doesn't separate God from us, because he can't be offended, it separates us from Him. You're entitled to your opinions that it is outdated, childish and non-sense.

It there was a "fall" then there was a state from which the "fall" happened. (Perhaps you should take Theology 101).
You have not one shred of evidence that "volition" ever lived in any different state than it does now, or that any change happened.
That is nothing but made up nonsense. It is FAR MORE than just my "opinion" You have to demonstrate there was a change.
And BTW, IF humans are somehow "saved" then why is there or was there ever, NO observed change in anyone's sinful state.
Human nature EVOLVED to be what it is, and never changed.
The Hebrews who wrote about the Garden, had no notion that there was a "fall" from grace. Christians made that up. It's not really a Biblical concept at all.
Actually if you read Genesis, you will find even that text does not say they "chose sinfulness". It's a LATER cultural interpretation of the garden myth, which was told in other cultures also, as that was the only explanation the ancients had for the world around themselves.

You're the second theist here I've run across who seems to think that an attempt to delegitimize the poster, ("that's nothing but your opinion") is a legitimate method of debate.
If you can't address the SUBJECT at hand, then you get to say nothing. Present the evidence for how you KNOW there ever was a different volitional state, or say nothing
Saying "it's just your opinion" is hardly adequate.

(January 10, 2019 at 11:23 am)tackattack Wrote: I never said there was a preternatural state of perfection. There was a preternatural state with volition living in a place of perfection. It chose sinfulness which continues till this day. Sinfulness doesn't separate God from us, because he can't be offended, it separates us from Him. You're entitled to your opinions that it is outdated, childish and non-sense.

God could convince me that he exists; I have a perspective that is sometimes referred to as "non-resistive, non-belief".  If God truly exists, I would be delighted to meet his/her/its acquaintance.

But, I really believe that God, god(s), etc., are in the same category as fairies, unicorns and invisible talking donkeys, and I see no reason to waste what little and precious time that I have in this life, which is the only life that I have to live.

There’s a variety of orthodox view of Atonement. Eastern Orthodox subscribe to a moral view, that Christ died as moral model for the rest of us. Secondly the conception of original sin, fallen world need not be statement about how the world ended up this way, but the way the world is, regardless if it was this way from the beginning or proceeding some events at the start of history. The world in a variety of religions, appears broken, off the mark, not as whole or as good as it ought to be.

Here’s one particular  renowned catholic theologian Herbert McCabe’s expression of the meaning of Christ’s death:

“‘The story of Jesus is what the eternal trinitarian life of God looks like when it is projected on to the screen of history, and this means on the screen not only of human history but of sinful human history.
The obedience of Jesus to the Father, his obedience to his mission, is just what the eternal procession of the Son from the Father appears as in history. His obedience consists in nothing else but being in history,  human.
Jesus did nothing but be the Son as human; that his life was so colorful, eventful, and tragic is simply because of what being human involves in our world.
We for the most part shy off being human because if we are really human we will be crucified.
If we didn’t know that before, we know it now; the crucifixion of Jesus was simply the dramatic manifestation of the sort of world we have made, the showing up of the world, the unmasking of what we call, traditionally, original sin.

There is no need whatever for peculiar theories about the Father deliberately putting his Son to death.
There is no need for any theory about the death of Jesus.
It doesn’t need any explanation once you know that he was human in our world.
Jesus died in obedience to the Father’s will simply in the sense that the Father will the Son to be human in our world.’

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(January 10, 2019 at 2:48 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(January 10, 2019 at 11:23 am)tackattack Wrote: I never said there was a preternatural state of perfection. There was a preternatural state with volition living in a place of perfection. It chose sinfulness which continues till this day. Sinfulness doesn't separate God from us, because he can't be offended, it separates us from Him. You're entitled to your opinions that it is outdated, childish and non-sense.

God could convince me that he exists; I have a perspective that is sometimes referred to as "non-resistive, non-belief".  If God truly exists, I would be delighted to meet his/her/its acquaintance.

But, I really believe that God, god(s), etc., are in the same category as fairies, unicorns and invisible talking donkeys, and I see no reason to waste what little and precious time that I have in this life, which is the only life that I have to live.

How about belief in a creative order, a reality that posses objective moral values, a transcendent moral reality. That the wrong I perceive exists independently of myself and other such the yellow of my wife’s dress, or the existence of other minds.

Would this also fall into a belief in invisible donkeys, and fairies?

(January 13, 2019 at 8:15 am)Acrobat Wrote: How about belief in a creative order, a reality that posses objective moral values, a transcendent moral reality. That the wrong I perceive exists independently of myself and other such the yellow of my wife’s dress, or the existence of other minds.

Would this also fall into a belief in invisible donkeys, and fairies?

An yes, the old debunked argument from morality. 

We know from Anthropology and History that human cultures have vastly different moral values. 
Some cultures (including the Hebrews) sacrificed children, and thought that was a way to obtain the favor of the gods. 

The morality in the Bible changed radically over time. There is no "objective" morality.

The wrong you perceive you LEARNED from growing up in your culture. It is why philosophers and those who study ethics ARGUE and disagree all the time about what is moral. 
Yes, your cultural beliefs, examined are yours, and can be the same as belief in invisible donkeys and fairies.

You think honor killings prove the moral order ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
LOL

Or this "moral order" ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide

John 3:17
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

The Christian position is that Jesus was sent for a very specific purpose, NOT to "just be human" in the world.

Quote:

(January 13, 2019 at 11:13 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: [quote='Acrobat' pid='1876874' dateline='1547381712']


How about belief in a creative order, a reality that posses objective moral values, a transcendent moral reality. That the wrong I perceive exists independently of myself and other such the yellow of my wife’s dress, or the existence of other minds.

Would this also fall into a belief in invisible donkeys, and fairies?

An yes, the old debunked argument from morality.

We know from Anthropology and History that human cultures have vastly different moral values.
Some cultures (including the Hebrews) sacrificed children, and thought that was a way to obtain the favor of the gods.

The morality in the Bible changed radically over time. There is no "objective" morality.

The wrong you perceive you LEARNED from growing up in your culture. It is why philosophers and those who study ethics ARGUE and disagree all the time about what is moral.
Yes, your cultural beliefs, examined are yours, and can be the same as belief in invisible donkeys and fairies.

You think honor killings prove the moral order ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
LOL

The question was whether such beliefs, beliefs in moral realism, are equivalent to beliefs in invisible donkeys, and fairies, not whether such beliefs are true.

Quote:The Christian position is that Jesus was sent for a very specific purpose, NOT to "just be human" in the world.

Which Christian position? What’s the position of Eastern Orthodox?

In reality this position differs among different Christian sects, even those considered orthodox, the view Catholics different than that of Calvinist, the view of Lutherans different than Eastern Orthodox. Herbert McCabe’s view different than John Piper’s.

McCabe is representative of the Catholic Church, unless Catholics want to denounce his view as anticatholic, his view stands as well, regardless of what you as an atheists thinks