(January 19, 2019 at 1:53 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 1:51 pm)Yonadav Wrote: I don't know where it ends. I'm just not sure that it should end with a convenient lie about reproductive rights. It is a complicated issue. I personally am not opposed to abortion. But I am opposed to convenient lies. They grow into more malignant lies.

No it is not a complicated issue. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. If it is not your body, stay the fuck out of it.

You are expressing your worldview as if it is the law. Bodily self determination is popular rhetoric, but it doesn't exist as an actual legal concept. Roe v Wade is about a doctor's right to perform a procedure that they think is in the best interest of their patient, in their medical opinion. There no law that says women can do as they please with their bodies, no matter how much rhetoric you have heard to that effect.

(January 19, 2019 at 2:05 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 1:53 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No it is not a complicated issue. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. If it is not your body, stay the fuck out of it.

You are expressing your worldview as if it is the law. Bodily self determination is popular rhetoric, but it doesn't exist as an actual legal concept. Roe v Wade is about a doctor's right to perform a procedure that they think is in the best interest of their patient, in their medical opinion. There no law that says women can do as they please with their bodies, no matter how much rhetoric you have heard to that effect.

That is not a "worldview" it is simple common sense. 

You are assuming that most doctors whom preform that procedure do it strictly for the money. No ethical doctor is going to simply just do it. They are going to take into account lots of factors, heath first off, then economics, and family life. And FYI the majority of provisions for females for groups like Planned Parenthood are NOT abortions, but health screenings.

Even outside the issue of abortion, with other operations, and having taken care of my elderly mother, who passed away in 17, I can tell you the doctors with all her procedures always told her the truth, but it was still ultimately up to her what she did. 

Upon her last diagnosis, the doctor told her that there was a 50/50 chance if she chose to try to survive, but by that time, she had already been through alot and had chronic health and mobility problems, on top of being a very self sufficient and independent woman until her decline. But, it was still up to her. If it had been up to me I wanted her to try to survive. She was simply tired and was considering her quality of life. It was gut wrenching to watch her make that final decision. I still had no say. 

This isn't politics or ideology or religion. It is simply a matter of allowing an individual to make choices for themselves.

So please do not assume that pro choice advocates set out to throw a party over abortion. Otherwise I should throw a party over my own mother's final decision. 

Quality of life matters. And unless you are the person making that decision, you have no fucking say. PERIOD!

(January 19, 2019 at 2:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 2:05 pm)Yonadav Wrote: You are expressing your worldview as if it is the law. Bodily self determination is popular rhetoric, but it doesn't exist as an actual legal concept. Roe v Wade is about a doctor's right to perform a procedure that they think is in the best interest of their patient, in their medical opinion. There no law that says women can do as they please with their bodies, no matter how much rhetoric you have heard to that effect.

That is not a "worldview" it is simple common sense. 

You are assuming that most doctors whom preform that procedure do it strictly for the money. No ethical doctor is going to simply just do it. They are going to take into account lots of factors, heath first off, then economics, and family life. And FYI the majority of provisions for females for groups like Planned Parenthood are NOT abortions, but health screenings.

Even outside the issue of abortion, with other operations, and having taken care of my elderly mother, who passed away in 17, I can tell you the doctors with all her procedures always told her the truth, but it was still ultimately up to her what she did. 

Upon her last diagnosis, the doctor told her that there was a 50/50 chance if she chose to try to survive. But, it was still up to her. If it had been up to me I wanted her to try to survive. She was simply tired and was considering her quality of life. It was gut wrenching to watch her make that final decision. I still had no say. 

This isn't politics or ideology or religion. It is simply a matter of allowing an individual to make choices for themselves.

So please do not assume that pro choice advocates set out to throw a party over abortion. Otherwise I should throw a party over my own mother's final decision. 

Quality of life matters. And unless you are the person making that decision, you have no fucking say. PERIOD!

Dude, you really need to work on talking to people and having a discussion with them, instead of ranting against a figment of your own imagination. For example, why would I assume that pro choice advocates set out to throw a party over abortion?  I have been a life time pro choice advocate.

(January 19, 2019 at 2:26 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 2:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote: That is not a "worldview" it is simple common sense. 

You are assuming that most doctors whom preform that procedure do it strictly for the money. No ethical doctor is going to simply just do it. They are going to take into account lots of factors, heath first off, then economics, and family life. And FYI the majority of provisions for females for groups like Planned Parenthood are NOT abortions, but health screenings.

Even outside the issue of abortion, with other operations, and having taken care of my elderly mother, who passed away in 17, I can tell you the doctors with all her procedures always told her the truth, but it was still ultimately up to her what she did. 

Upon her last diagnosis, the doctor told her that there was a 50/50 chance if she chose to try to survive. But, it was still up to her. If it had been up to me I wanted her to try to survive. She was simply tired and was considering her quality of life. It was gut wrenching to watch her make that final decision. I still had no say. 

This isn't politics or ideology or religion. It is simply a matter of allowing an individual to make choices for themselves.

So please do not assume that pro choice advocates set out to throw a party over abortion. Otherwise I should throw a party over my own mother's final decision. 

Quality of life matters. And unless you are the person making that decision, you have no fucking say. PERIOD!

Dude, you really need to work on talking to people and having a discussion with them, instead of ranting against a figment of your own imagination. For example, why would I assume that pro choice advocates set out to throw a party over abortion?  I have been a life time pro choice advocate.

No discussion to be had.

Not your body, stay the fuck out of it. I cant dumb it down any further for you.

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FYI Yonandav I noticed you list yourself as "Jewish" under religious views.

Well, looky here seems that Israel's population has more common sense than you do.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-ab...t-liberal/

Quote:You are expressing your worldview as if it is the law. Bodily self determination is popular rhetoric, but it doesn't exist as an actual legal concept.

It underlines the legal concept 

Quote:Roe v Wade is about a doctor's right to perform a procedure that they think is in the best interest of their patient, in their medical opinion.

Which perfectly aligns with the concept 

Quote:There no law that says women can do as they please with their bodies, no matter how much rhetoric you have heard to that effect.

Same as above as it ties into a broader view of rights

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(January 19, 2019 at 2:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: There is no dignity to the individual without body autonomy.

Agreed

(January 19, 2019 at 2:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 2:26 pm)Yonadav Wrote: Dude, you really need to work on talking to people and having a discussion with them, instead of ranting against a figment of your own imagination. For example, why would I assume that pro choice advocates set out to throw a party over abortion?  I have been a life time pro choice advocate.

No discussion to be had.

Not your body, stay the fuck out of it. I cant dumb it down any further for you.

---

FYI Yonandav I noticed you list yourself as "Jewish" under religious views.

Well, looky here seems that Israel's population has more common sense than you do.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-ab...t-liberal/

But it is my world. There is no such thing as 'reproductive rights'.  It simply does not follow that simply because you can do something, then you have a right to do it. When we first started talking about this, you assumed that I was targeting abortion. I wasn't.  In the near future, we might need to start regulating reproduction. And we are going to have to get tougher on unfit parents. Some of the lies that we are telling now are going to complicate future discussions.

I cannot stress this enough. No sane person with empathy sets out to create a bad situation where a tough decision has to be made. But life happens and our tracks go up and down, to greater or lesser degrees. It is simply better long term to address economic/education issues, than to scapegoat someone who gets in a tough position.

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(January 19, 2019 at 3:06 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 2:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No discussion to be had.

Not your body, stay the fuck out of it. I cant dumb it down any further for you.

---

FYI Yonandav I noticed you list yourself as "Jewish" under religious views.

Well, looky here seems that Israel's population has more common sense than you do.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-ab...t-liberal/

But it is my world. There is no such thing as 'reproductive rights'.  It simply does not follow that simply because you can do something, then you have a right to do it. When we first started talking about this, you assumed that I was targeting abortion. I wasn't.  In the near future, we might need to start regulating reproduction. And we are going to have to get tougher on unfit parents. Some of the lies that we are telling now are going to complicate future discussions.

Yea ok, then no property rights, no freedom of speech, no reason to have a free society. Lets just let any class, political ideology, religion dictate to everyone and fuck pluralism.

The only argument to be made about abortion is to make it a safe procedure. 

Again, NOBODY is arguing "simply do it"..... Please fucking knock that off.

What pro choice advocates are arguing is that if you want better ways of reducing unwanted pregnancies is to address health and economics and family planning. Outlawing abortion won't do that.

(January 19, 2019 at 3:06 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 2:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No discussion to be had.

Not your body, stay the fuck out of it. I cant dumb it down any further for you.

---

FYI Yonandav I noticed you list yourself as "Jewish" under religious views.

Well, looky here seems that Israel's population has more common sense than you do.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-ab...t-liberal/

But it is my world. There is no such thing as 'reproductive rights'.  It simply does not follow that simply because you can do something, then you have a right to do it. When we first started talking about this, you assumed that I was targeting abortion. I wasn't.  In the near future, we might need to start regulating reproduction. And we are going to have to get tougher on unfit parents. Some of the lies that we are telling now are going to complicate future discussions.

I disagree with both regulating reproduction is an awful idea and the term unfit parents is loaded as hell .And yes such rights exist otherwise their is no sovereignty over the body .

(January 19, 2019 at 3:38 pm)Amarok Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 3:06 pm)Yonadav Wrote: But it is my world. There is no such thing as 'reproductive rights'.  It simply does not follow that simply because you can do something, then you have a right to do it. When we first started talking about this, you assumed that I was targeting abortion. I wasn't.  In the near future, we might need to start regulating reproduction. And we are going to have to get tougher on unfit parents. Some of the lies that we are telling now are going to complicate future discussions.

I disagree with both regulating reproduction is an awful idea and the term unfit parents is loaded as hell .And yes such rights exist otherwise their is no sovereignty over the body .

Unfit parents is a thorny issue, but it isn't loaded. It's just complicated. At the extreme end of the issue, it isn't complicated. Taking a baby away from drug addicted criminals is a no brainer.  Taking a child away from parents who beat the crap out of their child is a no brainer.  Taking a child away from people who spend their money on drugs and alcohol but don't feed their child is a no brainer. We just don't know what to do with the children, once we take them. And the issue becomes difficult when dealing with people whose parenting offences are not so blatant. Once we start taking people's children, where do we stop? That's a bit worrisome.

Sovereignty over the body is more of a rhetorical concept than a legal one. I support a woman's right to get an abortion, but Roe v Wade isn't about sovereignty of the body. It is totally about a doctor's right to perform medical procedures that they determine is in the patient's medical best interest. That is what Roe v Wade actually says. It doesn't say that people can do whatever they want with their bodies.

(January 19, 2019 at 3:06 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 2:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No discussion to be had.

Not your body, stay the fuck out of it. I cant dumb it down any further for you.

---

FYI Yonandav I noticed you list yourself as "Jewish" under religious views.

Well, looky here seems that Israel's population has more common sense than you do.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-ab...t-liberal/

But it is my world. There is no such thing as 'reproductive rights'.  It simply does not follow that simply because you can do something, then you have a right to do it. When we first started talking about this, you assumed that I was targeting abortion. I wasn't.  In the near future, we might need to start regulating reproduction. And we are going to have to get tougher on unfit parents. Some of the lies that we are telling now are going to complicate future discussions.

Um no, this is not your world. This is our species home, not just you, and not just when you get what you want.

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(January 19, 2019 at 3:59 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 19, 2019 at 3:38 pm)Amarok Wrote: I disagree with both regulating reproduction is an awful idea and the term unfit parents is loaded as hell .And yes such rights exist otherwise their is no sovereignty over the body .

Unfit parents is a thorny issue, but it isn't loaded. It's just complicated. At the extreme end of the issue, it isn't complicated. Taking a baby away from drug addicted criminals is a no brainer.  Taking a child away from parents who beat the crap out of their child is a no brainer.  Taking a child away from people who spend their money on drugs and alcohol but don't feed their child is a no brainer. We just don't know what to do with the children, once we take them. And the issue becomes difficult when dealing with people whose parenting offences are not so blatant. Once we start taking people's children, where do we stop? That's a bit worrisome.

Sovereignty over the body is more of a rhetorical concept than a legal one. I support a woman's right to get an abortion, but Roe v Wade isn't about sovereignty of the body. It is totally about a doctor's right to perform medical procedures that they determine is in the patient's medical best interest. That is what Roe v Wade actually says. It doesn't say that people can do whatever they want with their bodies.

It isn't a matter of "unfit" parents. Class should not prevent one from having a child or having an abortion.

It is a matter of long term thinking in terms of wages, education, health care, mental health care so that nobody falls through the cracks. 

There are plenty of well off individuals who abuse family and or drugs too. 

Outlawing abortion is stupid, and mostly based on old mythology.