(October 4, 2011 at 6:21 am)Jaysyn Wrote:

(October 4, 2011 at 12:23 am)salty Wrote: The decision to steal from people is immoral, but it does no harm to others. The decision to lie to people is immoral, but it does no harm to others.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen anyone put to electrons. Stealing from someone most certainly causes financial harm. Lying to someone can cause all kinds of awful repercussions, depending on what you are lying about.

How are your mental gymnastics working out?

Clearly hasn't watched Terry Pratchetts' "Going Postal' or 'Making Money'

although a work of "fiction" does define nicely (in words of one syllable) how your behaviour and beliefs can have devastating effects in ways you would never imagine.

Homosexuality is immoral because others judge people for it? Unbelievable. Stealing causes no harm. Fine, I'll come over there and steal all your shit, and maybe a kid or two. You can tell me it caused no harm then.

Salty, I want you to understand very fully that you and people like you are responsible for reinforcing these social constructs, which is exactly why they still exist. To ignore the similarities between the case of black people and homosexualities is to be deliberately ignorant. You cannot choose to be gay any more than you choose to be black. You're just like somebody who says 'I'm not racist, I have black friends, BUT...' and then says something offensive. Homosexuals don't have even footing, in your eyes, which makes them 'niggers'. You should be disgusted with yourself. How dare you say that it is not right because some people struggle with their sexuality and commit suicide? It can't be emphasised enough: THIS ONLY HAPPENS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

The fact that people struggle with it does not make something immoral. I am willing to bet that by and large, only people who have friends/family who would judge them for being gay experience these struggles to this extent. And it wouldn't surprise me if religion played its part also.

Shameful. I'd like to think that the people who died so you didn't have to sit at the back of the bus any more would be ashamed of you.

It makes me sad that we can finally realize racism is wrong, but salty can think homosexuality is wrong because most people don't like it. Seriously, that can sum up your argument. You say because they have to "come out of the closet" their behavior is wrong? No, its just because bigoted assholes would be likely to treat them badly if they knew they were gay. Sort of like the bigoted assholes that would hurt you because your black. No. Difference. At. All. A gay person having a relationship with another gay person is just as fine as you being married to your white husband. Remember when society didn't like that?

(October 3, 2011 at 10:46 pm)salty Wrote: Society deemed homosexual behavior immoral for quite a while and it is still not an accepted practice.

You do realize that in ancient Greece and Rome homosexuality was prevalent and nobody was really bothered by it - until some christian emperor made it punishable by death. A quick look an wikipedia, it seems like many native American and African cultures were tolerant of homosexuality as well, until christians showed up and killed them.

(October 3, 2011 at 10:46 pm)salty Wrote: But to say "nothing is wrong" is to 1. Be deceived by society's view of moral behavior, the same society that killed slaves if one white woman claimed to have been looked at funny, the same society that said we had separate but equal schools, hospitals etc, the same society that expected women to stay in their place...society's idea of what is right changes like the seasons, and the person that stands against it is less than human.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. Do you? I agree that society's idea of what is right changes, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. You say that someone who tries to stand against equal rights is "less than human", does that mean you think homosexuals should have equal rights? By that I don't mean "well you can have this thing that's like marriage, but it's not marriage..." because that's the same thing as segregated schools.

(October 3, 2011 at 10:46 pm)salty Wrote: 2. Be deceived by the heart instead of the logic that tells us that two people of the same gender don't match up, instead you point to animals like homosexuals can't control themselves when they go into heat for mating season. I doubt they'd be happy with that comparison. Also, you will note that same gender encounters among animals isn't common, so if it's uncommon, it's unnatural.

Here you go again with the "they don't match up" bit again. What does that even mean? How about a fat guy and a skinny woman, do they "match up"? If you mean they can't experience sexual pleasure with one another you're certainly wrong, and we've already established that procreation has nothing to do with it. If you keep saying "they don't match up" I really think you ought to elaborate; though I doubt any of us will find it convincing.

You were doing a fine job earlier in this discussion of not using the "it's unnatural" argument. Or at least I didn't notice. First though, how common an occurrence is has nothing to do with whether it's natural or not. Insert any rare disease here. Hell, where I live tornadoes are very rare, but once in a while we get one. One even went through town, flipping cars and narrowly missing a shitty old hotel everybody hoped it would destroy. In no way is this "unnatural". That's why people bring up animals, but I suspect you know that. However even if homosexuality were unnatural, who cares? What does natural or unnatural have to do with right or wrong? Scuba diving, laser eye surgery, geosynchronous communication satellites (wait isn't the moon in a geosynchronous orbit?) I don't think a person could consider these things "natural", but I fail to see what that would have to do with them being considered wrong, or immoral.

(October 3, 2011 at 10:46 pm)salty Wrote: concerning the right conduct again.
1. The bible states it is perverse.
2. If it was right in the family upbringing people wouldn't need to "come out of the closet."
3. People are still against it, ask my brother in law, we can't talk about it around the family.
4. There are homosexual people who are not comfortable with this desire in their own minds, some commit suicide, some hide it their whole lives and marry a woman to practice in secret, some refuse to practice and some practice.
5. If it was right it wouldn't be difficult to tell friends that you're gay and it wouldn't ruin relationships in families.

1: We don't care what the bible says. The bible says slavery is ok, so I'm wondering why you care what it says.
2-5: This is why people are jumping down your throat. You argue that because there are people who aren't tolerant towards homosexuality, it's ok to not be tolerant towards homosexuality. That's complete nonsense.

I never understood why god was supposed to hate the gays so much, but had nothing to say about paedophilia.

(September 27, 2011 at 12:46 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(September 26, 2011 at 3:22 pm)Stucky Wrote: I believe that the act of homosexual sex is a sin,

Better tell that Jesus Christ of yours to stop loving you then.

Do you think love and sex are the same thing?

(October 4, 2011 at 12:48 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: I never understood why god was supposed to hate the gays so much, but had nothing to say about paedophilia.

Because it's perfectly fine silly.

(October 4, 2011 at 10:21 am)ElDinero Wrote: Salty, I want you to understand very fully that you and people like you are responsible for reinforcing these social constructs, which is exactly why they still exist. To ignore the similarities between the case of black people and homosexualities is to be deliberately ignorant. You cannot choose to be gay any more than you choose to be black. You're just like somebody who says 'I'm not racist, I have black friends, BUT...' and then says something offensive. Homosexuals don't have even footing, in your eyes, which makes them 'niggers'. You should be disgusted with yourself. How dare you say that it is not right because some people struggle with their sexuality and commit suicide? It can't be emphasised enough: THIS ONLY HAPPENS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

What would you say about sex?
Is there any confines natural or societal that would distinguish sex as an offense or "wrong"?
Does there exist in this world anything pure or any nature that is pure?
Is sex something that matters prominently as a means of my existence(not my conception that was the act of another) or can it be a road never traveled.

(October 4, 2011 at 2:16 pm)C Rod Wrote: What would you say about sex?
Is there any confines natural or societal that would distinguish sex as an offense or "wrong"?
Does there exist in this world anything pure or any nature that is pure?
Is sex something that matters prominently as a means of my existence(not my conception that was the act of another) or can it be a road never traveled.

What in the fucking fuck?

(October 4, 2011 at 2:16 pm)C Rod Wrote: What would you say about sex?
Is there any confines natural or societal that would distinguish sex as an offense or "wrong"?
Does there exist in this world anything pure or any nature that is pure?
Is sex something that matters prominently as a means of my existence(not my conception that was the act of another) or can it be a road never traveled.

I don't do riddles mate. Care to actually tell me what your point is and how it relates to the discussion being had?