(February 20, 2019 at 10:11 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 9:35 am)DLJ Wrote: What’s your definition of ‘Liberal’?

It is going to vary from individual just like "atheist" also does not mean we agree on all things all the time.

But as a general description, "liberal" IN GENERAL is someone who values pluralism and values workers stability. There is still going to be disagreement even among liberals as to how to go about fostering that.
...

US politics is plagued with weak semantics.

No wonder their media finds it so easy to manipulate muddled minds.

igh:

Bernie isn't a viable candidate in fly over country. Dems need to find a candidate that will connect with a majority of the nation. Got to keep in mind the E college, it's not just popular vote.

(February 20, 2019 at 10:21 am)Cepheus Ace Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 9:20 am)Brian37 Wrote: I voted for Bernie in the primaries, and Hillary in the general. Bernie ended up supporting Hillary once she got the nomination. BUT that is done and over and we cannot change the past. 

I am sick of BOTH Bernie's supporters and Hillary's supporters clinging to the past. I personally didn't want Bernie to run again, not because of him, the individual, but for the same reason I didn't want Hillary running again this time. BECAUSE of the  shit I am still seeing. The candidates as individuals ARE NOT THE PROBLEM, the lack of unity in supporting the nominee was back then, and will be again.

I cant see Bernie winning the nomination, not because I hate him, or love Hillary, but in that it it is a bigger field and I see someone else like Biden, or Warren or someone else having a better chance. But ultimately division is not an option.

The Supreme Court, should be the biggest issue in 2020. Giving the orange asshole 8 years will fuck things up even worse. 

PLEASE LIBERALS, let go of the past, there is too much at stake to be divided this time around.

why is division not an option?

you want people to unify behind them? why should anyone do that? what policy positions are they gonna propose that people can unify behind?

what makes Biden any better? What policy positions does he have that make him better than Bernie?

PICK YOUR BATTLES.

Politics is not a purity test. Change is a bottom up push, not a top down mandate. For one to get a politician to do what you want, that person needs support, REGARDLESS of whom you vote for. The climate of a party platform is not changed solely at the top. Change starts at the local level every day every year long term. 

I do value the debate of policy and ideas. But we do not live in a utopia where one party or one candidate gets 100% of what they want all the time.

I am not voting for Bernie in the primaries this time, nor would I vote for Hillary in the primaries if she decided to run. Not because I hate either of them, I love both of them. This time I think democrats are going to have a far better shot with new blood. But I am still going to vote democrat in the general regardless.

Any policy issues have to be discussed every day regardless and especially in midterms. 

There is a time to have those fights, and a time not to. Primaries are for showing the differences, the general is about getting the office.

Purity is not the way you defeat Trump.

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(February 20, 2019 at 10:34 am)DLJ Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:11 am)Brian37 Wrote: It is going to vary from individual just like "atheist" also does not mean we agree on all things all the time.

But as a general description, "liberal" IN GENERAL is someone who values pluralism and values workers stability. There is still going to be disagreement even among liberals as to how to go about fostering that.
...

US politics is plagued with weak semantics.

No wonder their media finds it so easy to manipulate muddled minds.

igh:

So atheists all agree on all issues all the time? 

No? So why would "liberal" mean they are sheep either?

"Atheist" is a general term meaning "off", but that is all we have in common. Outside that we do not agree on politics or economics or religion 100% of the time.

Liberals are no different. In general we agree in protecting pluralism and worker stability. But that does not mean we all agree on how to get to those goals.

(February 20, 2019 at 10:28 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:14 am)Yonadav Wrote: And asswipes are always voting against a villain.

And in 2024 after you give the orange turd 8 years, and the Supreme court is not 5-4, but 7-3 or worse, remember you bullshit purity now.

What bullshit purity? Are you arguing with figments of your imagination again? I support Bernie. I want him to be president. If he doesn't win the nomination, I will shift my support to the person who does win the nomination-- unless they are a New Dem. I won't vote for a New Dem again, under any circumstances.

You don't like it that I won't vote for a New Dem? Too bad for you. If the party is stupid enough to run another New Dem, then it deserves four more years of Trump. I can take it. It sounds like you can't. Too bad for you.

(February 20, 2019 at 10:44 am)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:28 am)Brian37 Wrote: And in 2024 after you give the orange turd 8 years, and the Supreme court is not 5-4, but 7-3 or worse, remember you bullshit purity now.

What bullshit purity? Are you arguing with figments of your imagination again? I support Bernie. I want him to be president. If he doesn't win the nomination, I will shift my support to the person who does win the nomination-- unless they are a New Dem. I won't vote for a New Dem again, under any circumstances.

You don't like it that I won't vote for a New Dem? Too bad for you. If the party is stupid enough to run another New Dem, then it deserves four more years of Trump. I can take it. It sounds like you can't. Too bad for you.

I will too  if he gets the nomination.

NOT THE FUCKING POINT.

What I don't want to see, is the same shit as 2016. If he gets the nomination, I WILL SUPPORT HIM. If Biden gets the nomination, I will support him. If Harris gets the nomination I will support her. If Warren gets the nomination I will support her.

I am not voting for Bernie in the primaries like I did last time. NOT because I hate him. But I don't see him beating Trump. But if he does get the nomination, I will support him no matter what. 

Like I said, your response is part of the reason I hesitate to support him this time. Not because of him, but because of you. 

Same if Hillary jumped in too. Not because of her, but because of the purists she had too.

Primaries are for showing differences. That I am fine with. But the general election is about getting the party in power. 

The Supreme Court should be the most important focus right now. Judges hold office long after 4 or 8 years and set the tone for entire generations. Letting Trump fuck up the court even more would be a disaster.

I am not against you supporting Bernie, I did last time in the primaries myself. I am against the fucking purity test both Hillary and Bernie supporters had last time.

(February 20, 2019 at 10:38 am)wyzas Wrote: Bernie isn't a viable candidate in fly over country. Dems need to find a candidate that will connect with a majority of the nation. Got to keep in mind the E college, it's not just popular vote.

Fly over country? That's country where most Dems aren't viable. Bernie is one of the few who has any chance there at all. Bernie is popular in deeply red places like West Virginia.  You aren't thinking clearly. In 2016, Bernie would almost have certainly delivered the rustbelt. The rustbelt didn't go for Trump because they loved Trump. They went for Trump because they wanted to shake things up, and were sick to death of the New Dems. Bernie was a candidate that would have appealed to them, and still does.

Do you live in a deep blue area? You talk like someone who does. People in deep blue areas have an impression of what people think in fly over country that is pretty off base. Left leaning populism has a lot of appeal there.

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(February 20, 2019 at 10:56 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:44 am)Yonadav Wrote: What bullshit purity? Are you arguing with figments of your imagination again? I support Bernie. I want him to be president. If he doesn't win the nomination, I will shift my support to the person who does win the nomination-- unless they are a New Dem. I won't vote for a New Dem again, under any circumstances.

You don't like it that I won't vote for a New Dem? Too bad for you. If the party is stupid enough to run another New Dem, then it deserves four more years of Trump. I can take it. It sounds like you can't. Too bad for you.

 

NOT THE FUCKING POINT.

What I don't want to see, is the same shit as 2016. If he gets the nomination, I WILL SUPPORT HIM. If Biden gets the nomination, I will support him. If Harris gets the nomination I will support her. If Warren gets the nomination I will support her.

I am not voting for Bernie in the primaries like I did last time. NOT because I hate him. But I don't see him beating Trump. But if he does get the nomination, I will support him no matter what. 

Like I said, your response is part of the reason I hesitate to support him this time. Not because of him, but because of you. 

Same if Hillary jumped in too. Not because of her, but because of the purists she had too.

Primaries are for showing differences. That I am fine with. But the general election is about getting the party in power. 

The Supreme Court should be the most important focus right now. Judges hold office long after 4 or 8 years and set the tone for entire generations. Letting Trump fuck up the court even more would be a disaster.

I am not against you supporting Bernie, I did last time in the primaries myself. I am against the fucking purity test both Hillary and Bernie supporters had last time.

You supported Bernie the last time, but you won't support him this time because of me? That is stark raving insane. If you are pulling your support of Bernie because of Bernie supporters, then you are making it more likely that the nominee will be someone who is unacceptable to Bernie supporters, which makes it more likely that Trump will win. So what you are doing is certifiably insane, if your primary objective is to stop Trump.

You should spend some time seriously considering the possibility that you're an idiot.

(February 20, 2019 at 10:57 am)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:38 am)wyzas Wrote: Bernie isn't a viable candidate in fly over country. Dems need to find a candidate that will connect with a majority of the nation. Got to keep in mind the E college, it's not just popular vote.

Fly over country? That's country where most Dems aren't viable. Bernie is one of the few who has any chance there at all. Bernie is popular in deeply red places like West Virginia.  You aren't thinking clearly. In 2016, Bernie would almost have certainly delivered the rustbelt. The rustbelt didn't go for Trump because they loved Trump. They went for Trump because they wanted to shake things up, and were sick to death of the New Dems. Bernie was a candidate that would have appealed to them, and still does.

Do you live in a deep blue area? You talk like someone who does. People in deep blue areas have an impression of what people think in fly over country that is pretty off base. Left leaning populism has a lot of appeal there.

I live in fly over country. Bernie had almost no appeal here.

(February 20, 2019 at 10:57 am)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:38 am)wyzas Wrote: Bernie isn't a viable candidate in fly over country. Dems need to find a candidate that will connect with a majority of the nation. Got to keep in mind the E college, it's not just popular vote.

Fly over country? That's country where most Dems aren't viable. Bernie is one of the few who has any chance there at all. Bernie is popular in deeply red places like West Virginia.  You aren't thinking clearly. In 2016, Bernie would almost have certainly delivered the rustbelt. The rustbelt didn't go for Trump because they loved Trump. They went for Trump because they wanted to shake things up, and were sick to death of the New Dems. Bernie was a candidate that would have appealed to them, and still does.

Do you live in a deep blue area? You talk like someone who does. People in deep blue areas have an impression of what people think in fly over country that is pretty off base. Left leaning populism has a lot of appeal there.

Bernie does appeal to the rust belt states. So? Not the same year, not the same election. AGAIN, I PROMISE I will support him if he gets the nomination.

But again, NOT BECAUSE OF HIM, but because of the voters in both camps, is why I worry.

Warren was born in Oklahoma just so you know. Beto has appeal in Texas. Biden too, has wide appeal in the rust belt. 

We are not going to get another JFK or Obama this time around. But we still can win regardless of who we nominate, IF we have the right combo, hit the swing states, regardless. Trump is damaged good so it is dems election to lose right now.

2016 is over, we cant change it.  Bernie would have made a great president. Hillary would have made a great president. Trump is a horrible president. Any democrat we put in the White House, will get the fucker out. And will be far better than him. Especially when it comes to putting judges on the Supreme Court.

(February 20, 2019 at 10:34 am)DLJ Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:11 am)Brian37 Wrote: It is going to vary from individual just like "atheist" also does not mean we agree on all things all the time.

But as a general description, "liberal" IN GENERAL is someone who values pluralism and values workers stability. There is still going to be disagreement even among liberals as to how to go about fostering that.
...

US politics is plagued with weak semantics.

No wonder their media finds it so easy to manipulate muddled minds.

igh:

Tell me about it. I have to live here. Over in the thread about differences between right and left, some of the guys described the left using memes based in right of center talking points against the left as if those talking points described the left. When I laughed at that, one of them doubled down on their confusion by calling me a centrist. I keep running into these very, very confused people who confuse my obviously very, very far left political views with (inexplicably) conservative Republican views. Our 'left' has become inundated with people who are provisionally socially liberal, but fervently support Reagan style economic policies that they deny are Reaganomics.

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(February 20, 2019 at 11:07 am)wyzas Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 10:57 am)Yonadav Wrote: Fly over country? That's country where most Dems aren't viable. Bernie is one of the few who has any chance there at all. Bernie is popular in deeply red places like West Virginia.  You aren't thinking clearly. In 2016, Bernie would almost have certainly delivered the rustbelt. The rustbelt didn't go for Trump because they loved Trump. They went for Trump because they wanted to shake things up, and were sick to death of the New Dems. Bernie was a candidate that would have appealed to them, and still does.

Do you live in a deep blue area? You talk like someone who does. People in deep blue areas have an impression of what people think in fly over country that is pretty off base. Left leaning populism has a lot of appeal there.

I live in fly over country. Bernie had almost no appeal here.

I live in the rustbelt that probably would have gone for Bernie. The blue wall would not have crumbled.

What issues do the democrats stand for as a party?

medicare for all?
tuition free college?
legalizing weed and ending the war on drugs?
regulating and taxing wall st?
raising the top marginal tax rates on the rich?
a green new deal?
universal background checks?
raising the minimum wage and tying it to inflation?
ending the illegal wars overseas?
stop arming Saudi Arabia,, Israel, dictatorships and terrorist groups?
stop overthrowing legitimate govts to steal the nations resources for corporate profits?


the democrats and their strategists think moving to the right will make more people vote for them even though they lost more than a 1000 seats nation wide under Obama, Schumer and Pelosi when they campaigned as republican lite.

these seem to be only supported strongly by Bernie, Warren and justice democrats