(February 20, 2019 at 12:58 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 12:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: In the general however, if you sit out, or protest vote or hold grudges because your person didn't get the nomination, that is when it becomes a problem for me.

I didn't hold a grudge and I still didn't vote for Hillary. Hillary wasn't my candidate. Lucky for me, I don't care who has a problem with it.

Quote:I don't blame you personally. I do blame dems  AS A CLIMATE not having focus and not thinking long term. 

Yes, the party is a fucking shit show, which is why I didn't vote for one.

Quote:If you can't get 100% of what you want, your ideal perfect candidate, what do you do then?

I vote for the person I want every single time. If they don't win, I move on with my life. I don't vote based on what will tip the scales.

That sort of reasoning makes the Bwian angwy. You won't like the Bwian when he's angwy. You might not like him when he's not angwy either. No one knows. He's never not angwy.

(February 20, 2019 at 1:18 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 12:58 pm)Shell B Wrote: I didn't hold a grudge and I still didn't vote for Hillary. Hillary wasn't my candidate. Lucky for me, I don't care who has a problem with it.


Yes, the party is a fucking shit show, which is why I didn't vote for one.


I vote for the person I want every single time. If they don't win, I move on with my life. I don't vote based on what will tip the scales.

That sort of reasoning makes the Bwian angwy. You won't like the Bwian when he's angwy. You might not like him when he's not angwy either. No one knows. He's never not angwy.

No, what makes me angry is that people think in terms of utopias.

Outside the issue of politics, even in the cliche of "chasing your dreams", how many people become billionaires vs those who do not? How many people become famous actors vs those who do not? How many people become famous comedians vs those who do not? How many people become famous musicians on par vs the Beatles, vs those who don't become famous? How many pee wee league, highschool players and college players make it to the NFL, vs those who do not?

There is nothing wrong with having a back up plan if you don't get that perfect situation you want.

Bernie WAS my first choice last time. I voted for Hillary because she was my back up plan.

If your back up plan is sitting out, and that ends up allowing a dangerous person to win, that is not a strategy to me.

(February 20, 2019 at 1:32 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 1:18 pm)Yonadav Wrote: That sort of reasoning makes the Bwian angwy. You won't like the Bwian when he's angwy. You might not like him when he's not angwy either. No one knows. He's never not angwy.

No, what makes me angry is that people think in terms of utopias.

Outside the issue of politics, even in the cliche of "chasing your dreams", how many people become billionaires vs those who do not? How many people become famous actors vs those who do not? How many people become famous comedians vs those who do not? How many people become famous musicians on par vs the Beatles, vs those who don't become famous? How many pee wee league, highschool players and college players make it to the NFL, vs those who do not?

There is nothing wrong with having a back up plan if you don't get that perfect situation you want.

Bernie WAS my first choice last time. I voted for Hillary because she was my back up plan.

If your back up plan is sitting out, and that ends up allowing a dangerous person to win, that is not a strategy to me.

So why shouldn't Bernie be your first choice this time?   (not that I think that you actually vote in any primaries).

(February 20, 2019 at 1:41 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 1:32 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No, what makes me angry is that people think in terms of utopias.

Outside the issue of politics, even in the cliche of "chasing your dreams", how many people become billionaires vs those who do not? How many people become famous actors vs those who do not? How many people become famous comedians vs those who do not? How many people become famous musicians on par vs the Beatles, vs those who don't become famous? How many pee wee league, highschool players and college players make it to the NFL, vs those who do not?

There is nothing wrong with having a back up plan if you don't get that perfect situation you want.

Bernie WAS my first choice last time. I voted for Hillary because she was my back up plan.

If your back up plan is sitting out, and that ends up allowing a dangerous person to win, that is not a strategy to me.

So why shouldn't Bernie be your first choice this time?   (not that I think that you actually vote in any primaries).

Because it is a different year, different field. And because of the needless divisions I saw last time, AGAIN, not because of him, or Hillary, but because of the big enough minority purists IN BOTH CAMPS.

Liking him is not the issue. I do like him. But he is not the problem. Purist supporters are.

Strategy is my goal. I do not want a repeat of 2016.

I am with Shell in that we need a new crop. But I part company with her and you in saying sitting it out if your pick doesn't get the nomination. 

I will support Bernie if he gets the nomination. But I still fear that the baggage from last time will be a problem. I love him. I love Warren, I love Biden too. 

But again, any winner who becomes President will still need enough support in both chambers to be effective long term. 

AND again, the Judges a President nominates for the Supreme Court outlast both parties knowing they are lifetime appointments. 

Does anyone really want to risk 8 years of Trump being able to fuck that up worse than it already is now?

---

I look at politics as far as voting this way. Go for what you want, but have a back up plan and long term plan, because life is never perfect. Just like life outside of politics.

---

Here is what I would have loved to have seen happen last time, but did not.

Hillary/Bernie

Or

Bernie/Hillary

Or Hillary/Warren

Or Bernie/Warren

I think any of those combos and we wouldn't have to puke hearing "President Trump" right now.

We also would not have to have watched the Beer Pong Champion get a seat on the SCOTUS either.

So if Biden gets the nomination, or Bernie gets the nomination, or Warren gets the nomination or Harris gets the nomination or Booker gets the nomination, WHOMEVER, I am going to support anyone of them.

You know that old Stones song, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try some times, you get what you need."

Look at how the GOP operates and thinks. Trump ripped his way through the primaries, but in the end even those he defeated fell in line to put him in office.

(February 20, 2019 at 1:51 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 1:41 pm)Yonadav Wrote: So why shouldn't Bernie be your first choice this time?   (not that I think that you actually vote in any primaries).

Because it is a different year, different field. And because of the needless divisions I saw last time, AGAIN, not because of him, or Hillary, but because of the big enough minority purists IN BOTH CAMPS.

Liking him is not the issue. I do like him. But he is not the problem. Purist supporters are.

Strategy is my goal. I do not want a repeat of 2016.

 

You are not making any sense.  You've repeatedly called me a purist, simply because I won't vote for a candidate that I am opposed to, regardless of party. Getting rid of Bernie doesn't make his supporters any more likely to support a nominee that they are opposed to. It just makes it more likely that they will vote third party. So according to your reasoning, you should initially support him.   

You are saying that you are going to refuse to vote for a candidate that you like, just to spite his supporters. That's insane.

Here is what is not going to be the same as 2016. There will be no thumb on the scale for Hillary this time. The party machinery handed West Virginia to Hillary, even though Bernie won there. The 2016 primaries were corrupt, and it has been proven that there was a thumb on the scale for Hillary. So Bernie didn't get a fair shake then, and you want to deny him a fair shake now. Basically, you are reasoning that he shouldn't be given a fair shake now because he didn't get a fair shake then.

(February 20, 2019 at 2:40 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 1:51 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Because it is a different year, different field. And because of the needless divisions I saw last time, AGAIN, not because of him, or Hillary, but because of the big enough minority purists IN BOTH CAMPS.

Liking him is not the issue. I do like him. But he is not the problem. Purist supporters are.

Strategy is my goal. I do not want a repeat of 2016.

 

You are not making any sense.  You've repeatedly called me a purist, simply because I won't vote for a candidate that I am opposed to, regardless of party. Getting rid of Bernie doesn't make his supporters any more likely to support a nominee that they are opposed to. It just makes it more likely that they will vote third party. So according to your reasoning, you should initially support him.   

You are saying that you are going to refuse to vote for a candidate that you like, just to spite his supporters. That's insane.

Here is what is not going to be the same as 2016. There will be no thumb on the scale for Hillary this time. The party machinery handed West Virginia to Hillary, even though Bernie won there. The 2016 primaries were corrupt, and it has been proven that there was a thumb on the scale for Hillary. So Bernie didn't get a fair shake then, and you want to deny him a fair shake now. Basically, you are reasoning that he shouldn't be given a fair shake now because he didn't get a fair shake then.

If you sit out, or vote third party and Trump gets 8 years, call yourself whatever you want. Justify it however you want. It still means he gets 8 years.

It has nothing to do with the man himself. Bernie is not the problem. 

I wanted him to win the nomination last time. He did not. So what was I supposed to do, sit out? 

That is why I worry about VOTERS, now.

Has NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM, so fucking knock that shit off.

It has to do with lack of unity from the VOTERS. 

I am not worried about his policies. I am worried about VOTERS!

Just like I'd worry if Hillary ran again and Bernie did not. NOT BECAUSE OF THEM, but because of VOTERS!

I can see the same divisions happening this time too. Bernie gets nominated, and say Warren or Biden VOTERS sit out, or Warren or Biden win and Bernie voters sit out.

VOTERS VOTERS VOTERS, not the candidates.

STOP making it about the candidates.

(February 20, 2019 at 3:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 2:40 pm)Yonadav Wrote: You are not making any sense.  You've repeatedly called me a purist, simply because I won't vote for a candidate that I am opposed to, regardless of party. Getting rid of Bernie doesn't make his supporters any more likely to support a nominee that they are opposed to. It just makes it more likely that they will vote third party. So according to your reasoning, you should initially support him.   

You are saying that you are going to refuse to vote for a candidate that you like, just to spite his supporters. That's insane.

Here is what is not going to be the same as 2016. There will be no thumb on the scale for Hillary this time. The party machinery handed West Virginia to Hillary, even though Bernie won there. The 2016 primaries were corrupt, and it has been proven that there was a thumb on the scale for Hillary. So Bernie didn't get a fair shake then, and you want to deny him a fair shake now. Basically, you are reasoning that he shouldn't be given a fair shake now because he didn't get a fair shake then.

If you sit out, or vote third party and Trump gets 8 years, call yourself whatever you want. Justify it however you want. It still means he gets 8 years.

It has nothing to do with the man himself. Bernie is not the problem. 

I wanted him to win the nomination last time. He did not. So what was I supposed to do, sit out? 

That is why I worry about VOTERS, now.

Has NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM, so fucking knock that shit off.

It has to do with lack of unity from the VOTERS. 

I am not worried about his policies. I am worried about VOTERS!

Just like I'd worry if Hillary ran again and Bernie did not. NOT BECAUSE OF THEM, but because of VOTERS!

I can see the same divisions happening this time too. Bernie gets nominated, and say Warren or Biden VOTERS sit out, or Warren or Biden win and Bernie voters sit out.
 

You're still not thinking clearly. Everything that you are saying indicates that you should still be a Bernie supporter. You need to stop worrying about what other voters are going to do. 2016 was a factually corrupt Democratic primary. I could understand you getting as upset as you are if Hillary were to declare, because she was the corrupt candidate in 2016. Punishing Bernie for it makes no sense.

(February 20, 2019 at 3:14 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 3:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If you sit out, or vote third party and Trump gets 8 years, call yourself whatever you want. Justify it however you want. It still means he gets 8 years.

It has nothing to do with the man himself. Bernie is not the problem. 

I wanted him to win the nomination last time. He did not. So what was I supposed to do, sit out? 

That is why I worry about VOTERS, now.

Has NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM, so fucking knock that shit off.

It has to do with lack of unity from the VOTERS. 

I am not worried about his policies. I am worried about VOTERS!

Just like I'd worry if Hillary ran again and Bernie did not. NOT BECAUSE OF THEM, but because of VOTERS!

I can see the same divisions happening this time too. Bernie gets nominated, and say Warren or Biden VOTERS sit out, or Warren or Biden win and Bernie voters sit out.
 

You're still not thinking clearly. Everything that you are saying indicates that you should still be a Bernie supporter. You need to stop worrying about what other voters are going to do. 2016 was a factually corrupt Democratic primary. I could understand you getting as upset as you are if Hillary were to declare, because she was the corrupt candidate in 2016. Punishing Bernie for it makes no sense.

YES I AM THINKING CLEARLY!

1. Life is not a utopia, you don't always get 100% of what you want.

2. I do not want a repeat of 2016.

Nobody is punishing Bernie but his voters and Hillary's voters. 

BERNIE AND HILLARY were never the problem. Just enough of their VOTERS were.

Again, YOU not BERNIE  make me worry this time too.

If I could trust his supporters, and other candidates supporters this time to unite around the nominee NO MATTER WHO, I would not worry.

AGAIN THE VOTERS, NOT THE CANDIDATES.

(February 20, 2019 at 3:23 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 3:14 pm)Yonadav Wrote: You're still not thinking clearly. Everything that you are saying indicates that you should still be a Bernie supporter. You need to stop worrying about what other voters are going to do. 2016 was a factually corrupt Democratic primary. I could understand you getting as upset as you are if Hillary were to declare, because she was the corrupt candidate in 2016. Punishing Bernie for it makes no sense.

YES I AM THINKING CLEARLY!

1. Life is not a utopia, you don't always get 100% of what you want.

2. I do not want a repeat of 2016.

Nobody is punishing Bernie but his voters and Hillary's voters. 

BERNIE AND HILLARY were never the problem. Just enough of their VOTERS were.

Again, YOU not BERNIE  make me worry this time too.

If I could trust his supporters, and other candidates supporters this time to unite around the nominee NO MATTER WHO, I would not worry.

AGAIN THE VOTERS, NOT THE CANDIDATES.

You can't trust Bernie's supporters? Don't you have that backwards? Why should anyone trust you? You are backstabbing a guy that you once supported, just to spite his supporters-- one of whom you used to be. Why would anyone want you on their side?

You haven't explained what your problem is with me. Your problem is that I won't vote for a New Dem under any circumstances? I'm not going to vote for a New Dem whether you support Bernie or not.

(February 20, 2019 at 4:18 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 20, 2019 at 3:23 pm)Brian37 Wrote: YES I AM THINKING CLEARLY!

1. Life is not a utopia, you don't always get 100% of what you want.

2. I do not want a repeat of 2016.

Nobody is punishing Bernie but his voters and Hillary's voters. 

BERNIE AND HILLARY were never the problem. Just enough of their VOTERS were.

Again, YOU not BERNIE  make me worry this time too.

If I could trust his supporters, and other candidates supporters this time to unite around the nominee NO MATTER WHO, I would not worry.

AGAIN THE VOTERS, NOT THE CANDIDATES.

You can't trust Bernie's supporters? Don't you have that backwards? Why should anyone trust you? You are backstabbing a guy that you once supported, just to spite his supporters-- one of whom you used to be. Why would anyone want you on their side?

You haven't explained what your problem is with me. Your problem is that I won't vote for a New Dem under any circumstances? I'm not going to vote for a New Dem whether you support Bernie or not.

No, it is not a matter of trusting the majority of sane people. MOST Bernie and Hillary supporters LAST TIME were on board. The problem was just enough of each camp with their scorched earth bullshit.

I am not backstabbing anyone. I said I will vote for whomever we nominate. 

But right now, and based upon YOUR repeated responses you make me fear a repeat. NOT BERNIE BUT YOU!

If you were to say to me now, "I will vote for anyone who gets the nomination, even if it is not Bernie" you'd give me more comfort.

AGAIN BERNIE IS NOT THE PROBLEM YOU ARE.