Quote:No, the gospels are all dated prior to Nero, not to mention the rest the of NT, Paul's writing etc,

Yeah, not so much.  Very little of the NT is dated prior to Nero's reign, and only (most) of the Pauline Epistles, Mark, and James are potentially dated to Nero's lifetime.

Boru

-and those..ofc, are the early datings...dated so to prop up amusing notions and each other. All of them hypothetical.

Yes, dated at the lower end of possibles.  But I'm feeling generous this morning. 

Boru

(April 12, 2019 at 12:00 pm)Acrobat Wrote: ...No, the gospels are all dated prior to Nero...

This is a blatant knowing lie!
If we don't know who wrote the gospels, and we don't, then we don't know when they were written. Mark, the first gospel mentions the temple being flattened by the Romans in 70AD. We know this happened because it was documented, so there is no possible way any of the gospels could predate that event.

(April 12, 2019 at 7:19 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(April 12, 2019 at 12:00 pm)Acrobat Wrote: ...No, the gospels are all dated prior to Nero...

This is a blatant knowing lie!
If we don't know who wrote the gospels, and we don't, then we don't know when they were written. Mark, the first gospel mentions the temple being flattened by the Romans in 70AD. We know this happened because it was documented, so there is no possible way any of the gospels could predate that event.

You’re right, I had my period mixed up.

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(April 12, 2019 at 12:56 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: Yeah it seems that Nero's persecution of Christians is just another historical hoax that never happened, nor did Christians exist at that time especially in Rome.

(April 12, 2019 at 12:00 pm)Acrobat Wrote:  It's stretches  all credulity to imagine all these texts were revised in such a way to include a crucifixion, leaving hardly a trace of such editing, or some evidence of earlier manuscripts absent of this, early sects who believe he died some other way, rumors of it, etc......

It doesn't stretch anything because there were many versions of Jesus before that council happened when Christian leaders decided what kind of version of Jesus they wanted and burned over hundred books which described different Jesus.

Like for instance the late 2nd-century church father Irenaeus said that many Christians thought Jesus lived to an old age before being crucified. He also wrote that all the presbyters in Asia Minor testify that Jesus lived to old age as well.

Or consider the writing of Justin Martyr, a second-century apologist who mentioned some quite strange gospel that obviously didn't survive to today:
"And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race, has been in like manner imitated?"

The NT writings show no sign or indications that the crucifixion portions were some how added as revision to the original text, all of the NT confirmes the crucifixion. So did writers like Tacitus.

It should come as no surprise that some messiah claimant was strung up by the romans. The only people that would be surprised by it, would be his followers, since that wasn’t part of anybodies expectations at the time.

Jesus being crucified seems a lot more likely than the sort conspiracy theories you’re trying to sell.

(April 12, 2019 at 9:18 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Jesus being crucified seems a lot more likely than the sort conspiracy theories you’re trying to sell.

That's why I said embellished. The first preaching of Christianity featured but "Christ crucified" (1 Cor. 2:2) with no historical setting or detail. I Cor. 2:8 has him crucified by the mythic Archons, the archangelic servants of the Gnostic Demiurge.

And then Gospels embellished it into ridiculous trial, torture, makes Jews into Christ killers, supernatural darkness over the scene for three hours.

While Paul himself said there was no supernatural component to it what so ever: "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles," would seem to envision a conspicuously nonsupernatural crucifixion scene; else why would miracle-hungry Jews be disappointed in the preaching of the cross?

(April 13, 2019 at 1:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(April 12, 2019 at 9:18 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Jesus being crucified seems a lot more likely than the sort conspiracy theories you’re trying to sell.

That's why I said embellished. The first preaching of Christianity featured but "Christ crucified" (1 Cor. 2:2) with no historical setting or detail. I Cor. 2:8 has him crucified by the mythic Archons, the archangelic servants of the Gnostic Demiurge.

And then Gospels embellished it into ridiculous trial, torture, makes Jews into Christ killers, supernatural darkness over the scene for three hours.

While Paul himself said there was no supernatural component to it what so ever: "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles," would seem to envision a conspicuously nonsupernatural crucifixion scene; else why would miracle-hungry Jews be disappointed in the preaching of the cross?

Okay so the early Christians pre gospels, and Paul believed Jesus was crucified, just not in the real world? But some spiritual/supernatural realm? Based on your reading of Paul’s references to Christ?

And later Christians, including the gospel writers didn’t like the idea of this Jesus, so they decided to transform him into a historical person, who was crucified under the rule of Pilate.

And they almost got away with it, if it wasn’t for some pesky atheists on the internet 2000 years later.

Exposing the mother of all conspiracy theories.

(April 13, 2019 at 6:19 am)Acrobat Wrote: Okay so the early Christians pre gospels, and Paul believed Jesus was crucified, just not in the real world? But some spiritual/supernatural realm? Based on your reading of Paul’s references to Christ?

And later Christians, including the gospel writers didn’t like the idea of this Jesus, so they decided to transform him into a historical person, who was crucified under the rule of Pilate.

And they almost got away with it, if it wasn’t for some pesky atheists on the internet 2000 years later.

Exposing the mother of all conspiracy theories.

Hey, that's how it is with all gods. What can you do. Ce la vie.

(April 12, 2019 at 7:53 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Really, where would christianity be without Nero?
Back in the ancient Rome pagans found Christians to be as irritating as people today consider scientologists to be irritating, but once Nero started persecuting Christians for burning Rome (whether they really started the fire or not) pagans started feeling sorry for them and, needless to say, Christians exploited it beyond any measure creating whole culture of a "persecuted Christian" with myriads of invented martyr saints and other myths like catacombs where Christians would go down to worship during periods of persecution. Which still goes on in the minds of many Christians even today - they feel persecuted by communists, Jews, muslims, atheists, aliens, scientists - you name it.

So if there wasn't that period where Christians were persecuted pagans wouldn't feel that allure of forbidden religion do you think that christianity would just die long time ago?

Nero's older than christianity by at least fifty years. There may have been some ultra-orthodox jewish sects around which later became the genesis for christianity later on, but christianity itself was non existent.

You've got to remember that the stories about Nero persecuting christians come from later (i.e. 4th century on) commentators who wanted to do two things 1) denigrate Nero and 2) build up the myth of martyrdom within the christian church.

If you want a Roman emperor to blame for creating christianity, look no further back than Constantine. Before him, thousands of bickering sects with few followers and less power, after him an empire spanning monolithic religion with masses of power.

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(April 12, 2019 at 9:00 am)Acrobat Wrote: Nor is it evident that Christians exploited any such sympathies. Also, the virtue of being martyr didn’t originate later in the Christian movement, but a part of its very beginning, with the very idea of a crucified messiah.

The earliest christian teachings didn't even have a corporeal god, never mind a one who faked his own death for three days to get off work.

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(April 12, 2019 at 1:59 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:No, the gospels are all dated prior to Nero, not to mention the rest the of NT, Paul's writing etc,

Yeah, not so much.  Very little of the NT is dated prior to Nero's reign, and only (most) of the Pauline Epistles, Mark, and James are potentially dated to Nero's lifetime.

Boru

Most of the "Pauline" epistles are forgeries. Remember you've got four biblical authors called Paul, only one of whom can even be tenuously identified as the real Saul of Tarsus.

(April 13, 2019 at 5:14 pm)Nomad Wrote: Nero's older than christianity by at least fifty years. There may have been some ultra-orthodox jewish sects around which later became the genesis for christianity later on, but christianity itself was non existent.

You've got to remember that the stories about Nero persecuting christians come from later (i.e. 4th century on) commentators who wanted to do two things 1) denigrate Nero and 2) build up the myth of martyrdom within the christian church.

If you want a Roman emperor to blame for creating christianity, look no further back than Constantine. Before him, thousands of bickering sects with few followers and less power, after him an empire spanning monolithic religion with masses of power.

Yeah, you should have read few more posts where I say that it was a hoax. It is one of those things that I knew from before but I forgot because, I guess, I must be surrounded with disinformations or something and I forgot.

For instance it would be interesting if someone made one of those YouTube videos where they take a historical movie and point to its historical mistakes and that movie should be "Quo Vadis" (1951) because it's a fantasy movie presented as historical. There is Nero burning Rome, apostle Peter marrying people (church didn't meddle into marriage till like 12th century), Christians being fed to lions in the Colosseum, there's even Michelangelo's David in the movie.

But I guess people that make these kinds of videos stay away from religious movies.