(July 3, 2019 at 11:34 pm)Fierce Wrote: If biblical writers had been divinely inspired by god, wouldn't their writings have matched what we know today according to science? Since it doesn't, clearly those men were only inspired by their imaginations.

No, because they had no real interest in scientific truths of the world. If they did, they probably would have wrote something that looked like a textbook, rather than in the style of novels and stories.

Religions don’t exists to provide answers to the mechanics of the world, but to answer the question of what is there to live for.

(July 25, 2019 at 9:02 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Religions don’t exists to provide answers to the mechanics of the world, but to answer the question of what is there to live for.

Wow. And what is there to live for, according to religions?

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you(-all) (are-)know(ing) Him, and have(-been-) see(n-ing) Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." John 14:7-8 NASB
Hyper-Literal(continuing): He(Jesus)-is-saying to-him-same(Philip), thee Jesus, “so-long time with you-all I-am and-also not you-have-been-knowing-me Philip!, thee one-seeing me, he-has-been-seeing thee Father and-also; how? you, you-are-saying ‘You-show* to-us thee Father’. John 14:9

To a Jew 'Father' means more "The Head of the House" than Daddy.

(July 25, 2019 at 3:09 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: -and if we multiply the square root of pixies by how many djinn can dance on the head of a pin we see that the answer is Allah.

I have completely understood that you no longer reason when you said this

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(July 25, 2019 at 5:47 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(July 25, 2019 at 1:46 pm)soldierofGod Wrote: The ratio established by men for their masterpieces is 1,618, but the general is 1.6 for God for His Creation.

25/15 = 1,6666666 ... not 1,7. Mathematics does not deceive, man does. Do not change the Truth for Falsehood like those in the Bible because you would be following the same error as them. I bet if someone are looking for the truth you would say him 1.7 and not 1.6666 ...

Yeah, man deceives alright.

1.66666.... rounded to one decimal place is 1.7, not 1.6. Do you not understand the simple rules of rounding?

1.7 ?. But the Koran will always be 1,66666. Rounding is human work, not divine. Do you rely on human laws to understand the Divine law? No, what happens is that the infidel does not believe in God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17-RXHJ8n5c

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(July 25, 2019 at 5:47 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(July 25, 2019 at 1:46 pm)soldierofGod Wrote: The ratio established by men for their masterpieces is 1,618, but the general is 1.6 for God for His Creation.

25/15 = 1,6666666 ... not 1,7. Mathematics does not deceive, man does. Do not change the Truth for Falsehood like those in the Bible because you would be following the same error as them. I bet if someone are looking for the truth you would say him 1.7 and not 1.6666 ...

Yeah, man deceives alright.

1.66666.... rounded to one decimal place is 1.7, not 1.6. Do you not understand the simple rules of rounding?

Do not follow the laws of Antichrist.

(July 26, 2019 at 2:44 am)soldierofGod Wrote:

(July 25, 2019 at 3:09 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: -and if we multiply the square root of pixies by how many djinn can dance on the head of a pin we see that the answer is Allah.

I have completely understood that you no longer reason when you said this

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(July 25, 2019 at 5:47 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Yeah, man deceives alright.

1.66666.... rounded to one decimal place is 1.7, not 1.6. Do you not understand the simple rules of rounding?

1.7 ?. But the Koran will always be 1,66666. Rounding is human work, not divine. Do you rely on human laws to understand the Divine law? No, what happens is that the infidel does not believe in God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17-RXHJ8n5c

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(July 25, 2019 at 5:47 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Yeah, man deceives alright.

1.66666.... rounded to one decimal place is 1.7, not 1.6. Do you not understand the simple rules of rounding?

Do not follow the laws of Antichrist.

Then practice what you preach and stop using man-made rules to round numbers to the nearest tenth.

(July 25, 2019 at 11:21 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(July 25, 2019 at 9:02 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Religions don’t exists to provide answers to the mechanics of the world, but to answer the question of what is there to live for.

Wow. And what is there to live for, according to religions?

They’re not entirely all the same answer, but they’re all attempts to answer the same question. No ones religious, because they’re looking to acquire some quasi-scientific fact, but for something to live for.

In my religious view, the answer is something greater than oneself, a sacrificial love, that’s transformative and redemptive, and tragic in our world.

(July 5, 2019 at 12:21 pm)tackattack Wrote: No I'm not claiming it's a math book or a history book. I started off by pointing out to Fierce that the claims of the Bible as a science book, (History or math as well) is pretty ridiculous mainly because of it's purpose. Seen in the context and understanding of it's time, for what it's purpose was I feel it's very effective. If you're trying to use the Bible as a taxonomy or mathematics handbook you're headed the wrong direction, IMO.

Side note-I do love unicorns and although I've never seen one personally, believe they exist because of the Bible (and a few other sources).

Unicorns can't exist. Can you imagine a unicorn fight? It's ugly! When a young philly winks her eye... "Stop that!' "Your gonna poke somebody's eye out!"'

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(July 25, 2019 at 1:41 am)soldierofGod Wrote:

(July 16, 2019 at 3:21 pm)tackattack Wrote: 1. My understanding of the entirety of Muslim belief is shallow, so please forgive any misconceptions. The short answer no not zero. To my knowledge they are to read the torah, New Testament and Quran and I believe another book. I believe they acknowledge Jesus as the head prophet and a miracle worker. I believe I would really question if I'm supposed to believe this guy Jesus when he says he is the son of God.  I would probably be some sort of messianic Imam. Like a messianic Jew but for Allah. I mean they accept miracles and are supposed to believe the prophets but if the prophet says he's the Son of God, but there can't be a son of God, because God is one.. doesn't follow to me. I think the major incompatibility is the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity, plus the additional books and a belief in prophets (some Christian denominations do the latter).

2. Using the same analogy. There are 2 points. I don't believe people can train themselves out of their unconscious biases, by definition. To identify biases I use tools like Joharri's Window and Inter-observer reliability tests to help identify biases. Your question was about minimizing bias, though. For that I use things like seeking fairness, consistent review or continuous improvement, refining and clarity of concepts and beliefs, multiple reliable source inputs, a situational approach and I tend to self-dialogue with a six hat method. If you're not familiar with that I will get you a link

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHiwpz7r4wY 

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By taking a good self-inventory and minimizing the tint in your lens that you have identified as green, all those things outside that you thought were green would then stand out as something different or change too, which would necessitate a change in paradigm. A forest green would still be consistently forest green even though your tint is now more olive. you would notice no change in those things that are substantially (not necessarily objectively) true and be able to detect less of what is now in alignment with your new abstract paradigm. You bump that up against your self-inventory , look for any cognitive dissonance and start again.

Jesus is the Prophet of God, not His son. This was added during the Nicene Council after Jesus left. Jesus never claimed to be the son of God (Allah). The "Father" is God, the "Son" is Jesus and the "Holy Spirit" is the Angel Gabriel.

Okay, the idea of "Trinity" came in the 2nd century through a Latin speaking clown named Tertullian who gave us 'trinitas' and that predates Mohammad and the Nicene Creed. No such concept existed before the 2nd century AD. Nothing in the OT ever teaches such things. No Jew believes in a "Trinity". How could they ever when even Jesus said He is God? They just don't trust that the Mashiyach has came in the flesh. That makes them antichristos in Greek according to the epistles of John(the only place where that word is used). Hebrew: mashiyach/Greek: christos--they both are adjectives meaning: "Anointed-One" meaning anointed with a given purpose and destiny. There is no other one future Antichrist in the book of Revelation or any other book of the bible. 

The "Holy Spirt" merely refers to written Scripture. Holy/qadash/hagion = pure, undefiled, special, unique, separating a class from a class or, used only for special purposes like your best china. pneuma, transliterated into English as 'spirit' by the Latin word 'spiritus' which means breath, means: A breathed in intellect gleaned from an exterior source. "All Scripture is theopneustos/God-breathed" 2 Tim 3:16 NIV.

So when Mark said in Mark 12:36 NASV, "David said in the Holy Spirit" merely is saying that David said something in the God-breathed Scriptures specifically Psalm 110. Really? Was that too simple for you?

(July 25, 2019 at 9:02 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(July 3, 2019 at 11:34 pm)Fierce Wrote: If biblical writers had been divinely inspired by god, wouldn't their writings have matched what we know today according to science? Since it doesn't, clearly those men were only inspired by their imaginations.

No, because they had no real interest in scientific truths of the world. If they did, they probably would have wrote something  that looked like a textbook, rather than in the style of novels and stories.

Religions don’t exists to provide answers to the mechanics of the world, but to answer the question of what is there to live for.

Actually, the bible does not discredit science. When the bible says Adam and Eve--man, Garden, flowers, we can look at the geologic record and see that these things came to exist at the same time in history according to the geologic record and never prior. No big mystery to me. Yet, the earth went through an evolutionary process that predates flowers! The bible makes bold statements concerning nature and does not qualify them. When God taught these things there was no science. God, nor His Word, does NOT discredit observed science. Science discredits God's Word because they have no idea what was said. How could they when confused idiots try to pit theology with science. Such as YEC! The bible is most certainly NOT young earth!

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(July 25, 2019 at 2:15 am)soldierofGod Wrote:

(July 11, 2019 at 10:02 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But there are lots of languages from the 5th century that survive:  Greek, Chinese, Irish, Tamil, Hebrew and so on.  What you were asked, in essence, is why the final revelation of God was given only to a handful of desert nomads in a very small corner of the world. If the message was so bloody important, why didn't it also appear in Athens, Anyang, Waterford, Varanasi, Jerusalem, or any of a number of other places with higher literacy rates than Arabia?  Why wouldn't God deliver such a message to everyone , instead of a select few?

I'll give you a hint:  It's has something to do with religions being home-grown and there not being some supreme Lawgiver who gives a rat's charbroiled arse about humanity.

Boru

Quran, the Word of God
Proof 1- Evidence in the Creation

God created the Heavens and the Earth. After that He created man from clay giving him the best form *. To make Himself known, God uses signs in His creation. God says:

On Earth there are signs for those who have certainty. And in yourselves. Are you not going to see?

Quran 51: 20-21

That we truly create man in the best form

Quran 95: 4

Many architects, mathematicians and other researchers (Marcus Vitruvius, Adolf Seizing, Erns Neufert, Le Corbusier, etc.) realized that the human body and nature follow a single common ratio. This ratio is present in all creation, in every part, in every detail, included in the human being. This ratio is known as the Golden Number or Golden Ratio or Divine Proportion. It is represented by the Greek letter Phi (in honor of the Greek sculptor Phidias?). The Golden Number is mentioned in Quran by God (see below)

The ratio is equivalent to 1.618

This Golden Number consists of the sum of two measurements among themselves. When these measures are added together, a sequence is formed which is called the Fibonacci Sequence. This sequence was discovered by the Christian mathematician Leonardo Pisano (known by the name of Fibonacci) during the Middle Ages, in Pisa (now Italy). Fibonacci was educated in North Africa, later published the Liber Abacci with which he introduced the Indo-Arabic numbering system in Europe. Many sages (architects, sculptors, musicians, painters, mathematicians, philosophers, poets, etc.) were based on the works of Fibonacci (and the Indo-Arabic numbering system).
 
Fibonacci Sequence:
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55, ...

Basically this sequence of Fibonacci is done by adding the last two numbers (in bold) starting with 1:
1 + 1 = 2 + 1 = 3 + 2 = 5 + 3 = 8 + 5 = 13 + 8 = 21 + 13 = 34 + 21 = 55 ...

To give form to this sequence, the Fibonacci Spiral is used, which consists of a set of connected quarter-circles drawn within a series of squares (called a golden rectangle) regulated by Fibonacci numbers. This form is found in all creation and in the human being itself.

This ratio is used by many architects, painters, composers, designers, etc. as a basis for their masterpieces to create the most beautiful shapes and figures in the face of human perception. This Golden Number is irrational but it is generally 1.6.
You can see the Golden Number and its sequence in the creation and man itself (search images).
That said, as I said before, this Number or Golden Reason is mentioned by God in the Qur'an.

It is true that the first House that was erected for men was that of Bakka (Mecca), blessed and a guide for all the worlds.

Koran 3:96

But, what is the relationship between the Gold Number and Mecca?
The Mekka was built by Adam, the first man, and later destroyed by the Flood. It was rebuilt by Abraham and his son Ishmael by order of God. With time it was filled with idolatry and with Muhammad it was reestablished again to monotheism. Mecca was the first human settlement, it has always been there. Mecca is the city of God.
Precisely this Golden Ratio or Divine Proportion, if applied on Earth (map), it results in the location of Mecca on Earth (search in map image).
 
Verse 96 of Sura 3 contains 47 words. From the beginning of the verse to the word Bekkat (Mekka) there are 29 words, that is 47/29 = 1.6 (the Golden Number). From the word Bekkat to the end of the verse there are 18 more words, that is 29/18 = 1,6. God says in the Koran:

And [by] this secure city [Makkah], We have certainly created man in the best form

Quran 95:3-4

In the original text (Arabic, original language) verse 95:4 God(Allah) says about the creation of man:

We have certainly created man* in the best form

Quran 95:4

1.Mankind
In Arabic this verse contains 25 letters. From the beginning of the verse to the word alinsan (mankind) there are 15 letters, that is 25/15 = 1,6 (the Golden Number). The connection between the form * and the Gold Number is undeniable.

Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran in order that you may understand.

Koran 12:2 [Traduction by Mohsin Khan]

Do you understand now why the translated version is far from the true Qur'an? The Bible long ago moved away from its original message when it was translated from Aramaic, not to mention human misrepresentations during the process.
A non-Arabic Koran is no longer the Koran, the Word of God.

According to Averroes (Ibn Rushd), Muslim philosopher and doctor of the Middle Ages, he affirmed that there are two ways to reach God: through Philosophy (Reason) and Religion (Islam).
Philos means in Greek language ‘love’, that is, ‘beauty or wonder’ (before the human perception). Reason comes from the Old French ‘reisun’, of a variant of ‘ratio, rationis’ (Latin) that means ‘calculation, reckoning’.

Many are amazed by works created from clay/ground of the earth by men, but few reflect on their creation(from clay) and what is around them(in the earth). God honored and blessed the man by giving him the best of form among his creatures. This proves the existence of an Intelligent Designer, of a Creator, of God.

They asked the Prophet Muhammad: What is your miracle? The Prophet, peace be upon him, answered: the Qur'an.
-Why in Arabic and not another language?
-Why in Mecca and not somewhere else?
-Why in an illiterate desert tribe and not others?
I think these questions have already been answered.
How did Muhammad, an arabian illiterate pastor of the desert, know all this if mathematics and numbers were still very primitive in his time? It was simply inspired by the Lord of the Worlds.
The Koran, revealed more than 1400 years ago in the middle of the desert and ignorance.
 

On Earth there are signs for those who have certainty. And in yourselves. Are you not going to see?

Quran 51: 20-21

Oh Man[kind]! What separated you from your Lord, the Generous? The One Who created you, formed you and balanced you, giving you the shape He wanted.

Koran 82: 6-8

 
Now judge for yourselves and:

So what yet causes you to deny the Judgment? Is not God the most just of judges?

Koran 95:7-8

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6L-f0YHRGM

I've always used the Fibonacci sequence and spiral as a mental toys to play with. Since then I have been introduced to vortex math and fractal geometry. Way more fun!

(July 26, 2019 at 4:48 am)Acrobat Wrote: No ones religious, because they’re looking to acquire some quasi-scientific fact, but for something to live for.

In my religious view, the answer is something greater than oneself, a sacrificial love, that’s transformative and redemptive, and tragic in our world.

So if someone believes that Earth is 6000 years old he is believing in it because it is something he lives for? It fulfills his life? But the problem is that  it would be far more productive for society to devote yourself (or as you say "sacrifice") to science because that would be beneficiary to humanity.

Someone could find fulfilling believing that Sleeping Beauty is real, especially if he lives near the woods. So he goes every day looking for house where Sleeping Beauty sleeps in the woods. He can't ever find her, but to him this is even more encouraging because he explains himself it is because the evil fairy is making him wander in woods in circles, distracting him so it is invigorating him even more to look for her (it proves there is magic). Sometimes he even finds chunks of wood for which he believes are parts of the Spinning Wheel and that excites him even more and he lives for his expeditions into the woods.
But it would be far more useful for society if this guy lived in reality, maybe even took up science and invented some new batteries or became a doctor... So his beliefs are counterproductive.

Unless he is mentally restrained so it is better for society he believes in Sleeping Beauty than roaming on streets, harming himself or even doing some crime.

(July 27, 2019 at 3:56 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(July 26, 2019 at 4:48 am)Acrobat Wrote: No ones religious, because they’re looking to acquire some quasi-scientific fact, but for something to live for.

In my religious view, the answer is something greater than oneself, a sacrificial love, that’s transformative and redemptive, and tragic in our world.

So if someone believes that Earth is 6000 years old he is believing in it because it is something he lives for? It fulfills his life? But the problem is that  it would be far more productive for society to devote yourself (or as you say "sacrifice") to science because that would be beneficiary to humanity.

They believe that not believing this, would undermine the meaning and fulfillment they get from their religion, that it would open themselves up to nihilism.

If you asked them more probing questions, it becomes evident, that they’re trying to avoid any sort of eroding doubts, that undermine the deeper elements of their belief, and participation in their communities. They fear no longer believing in anything, they fear meaninglessness.. Hence why for them, disbelief, and nihilism are seen as going hand in hand.

It’s not about not believing in this one thing about the age of the earth, but the other things it could lead them to not believing. They’ll say things like if this isn’t true, how can I believe any thing else it says it’s true? If the Flood isn’t a historical event, how can I believe that Jesus truly conquered despair, in the resurrection?

Quote:Someone could find fulfilling believing that Sleeping Beauty is real, especially if he lives near the woods. So he goes every day looking for house where Sleeping Beauty sleeps in the woods. He can't ever find her, but to him this is even more encouraging because he explains himself it is because the evil fairy is making him wander in woods in circles, distracting him so it is invigorating him even more to look for her (it proves there is magic). Sometimes he even finds chunks of wood for which he believes are parts of the Spinning Wheel and that excites him even more and he lives for his expeditions into the woods.

I think you’d have to dig a lot deeper, beyond the surface of such beliefs, to find out why they hold them. If someone were so out of touch with reality, it’s probably because the conditions of that reality, are something they want to escape.

Quote:But it would be far more useful for society if this guy lived in reality, maybe even took up science and invented some new batteries or became a doctor... So his beliefs are counterproductive.

It’s far more useful for a society for people to believe life possess some sort of intrinsic meaning and purpose, that nihilism is not true. The death of such beliefs, would diminish a great deal of motivation and passion.