(August 1, 2019 at 9:14 pm)Fierce Wrote: It's fun to believe in imaginary things when you're a kid; be young, be innocent while you can, because you'll be a people-hating adult soon enough. But there comes a time when childish things should be left in childhood. Just as Santa is left behind, so should fictional mythological notions such as religion.

That's not your call to make for an individual, though. If an individual is happier believing in a fantasy, who are you to decide for them that they are better off without it?

The real issue is when that individual's fantasy drives him or her to do things detrimental to society at large. THAT'S when it's a problem. If an individual is content and does not engage in political activism based on his/her fantasy, then what's the problem?

Live and let live as long as they are not acting to the detriment of the rest of us.

If only they could bring themselves to stop casting jesus’s vote, lol.

There is a really good dialogue in the movie Inherit the Wind (1960) about this:

Quote:These are simple people, Henry, poor people. they work hard and they need to believe in something... something beautiful. They're seeking for something more perfect than what they have Window shopping for heaven. why do you want to take it away from them, Henry it's all they have...

Like my golden dancer.

Your what?

Golden dancer. She stood in the big side window in the general store in Wakeman, Ohio. I'd stand out on the street and say to myself, "if I had golden dancer, I'd have everything in the world I ever wanted. " I was about 7 years old at the time and a great judge of rocking horses. Golden dancer had a bright-red mane, blue eyes, and she was gold all over with purple spots. And when the sun hit her stirrups, She was a dazzling sight to behold.
But she was a week's wages for my father, So golden dancer and I always had a big plate-glass window between us. And then... Let's see... It couldn't have been christmas. It must have been my birthday. I woke in the morning, and there was golden dancer at the foot of my bed. Mom had skimped on the groceries, and my father had worked nights for a month. I jumped into the saddle, and I started to rock... and it broke.

No!

Split in 2. The wood was rotten. The whole thing was put together with spit and sealing wax. All shine and no substance, And that's how I feel about that demonstration I saw tonight, Matt... All glitter and glamour. You say you're giving the people hope I think you're stealing their hope. Oh no, Henry... As long as the prerequisite for that shining paradise is ignorance, bigotry, and hate... I say, "the hell with it. "

(August 1, 2019 at 11:41 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:

(August 1, 2019 at 9:14 pm)Fierce Wrote: It's fun to believe in imaginary things when you're a kid; be young, be innocent while you can, because you'll be a people-hating adult soon enough. But there comes a time when childish things should be left in childhood. Just as Santa is left behind, so should fictional mythological notions such as religion.

That's not your call to make for an individual, though. If an individual is happier believing in a fantasy, who are you to decide for them that they are better off without it?

The real issue is when that individual's fantasy drives him or her to do things detrimental to society at large. THAT'S when it's a problem. If an individual is content and does not engage in political activism based on his/her fantasy, then what's the problem?

Live and let live as long as they are not acting to the detriment of the rest of us.

One is an issue of human rights, and nobody is debating that.

The issue is that when someone corrects you error, you don't freak out.

It is certainly not my call in any legal sense to force someone not to believe. But sorry, I'll WILL  back up Galileo every fucking time.

If our species never questioned social norms, our species never would have left the caves.

It's fine to question social norms. It's strange to care what people think if they're literally doing nothing that affects anyone but themselves. I won't try to disavow anyone of their belief in fairy tales with the only exception being when it has a negative impact on others/the world in general. Sure, I'll tell someone that stoning people to death because they think god wants them to is incorrect. I won't tell them that their god isn't watching over them because that belief is harmless.

The trouble is that there’s no scenario in which a persons belief - doesn’t- effect others. That’s just the nature of belief.

So we plug our noses....and hey, nothing wrong with that.

(August 1, 2019 at 2:32 pm)Brian37 Wrote: A long time ago online a fellow liberal upon reading my criticism of religion posted, "Don't take away people's hope". I wasn't an experienced debater back then, and I did back off at first. But since, I had read the posts of countless others, and many skeptic authors as well. I wasn't trying to take away anyone's hope. If you have a telescope and someone insists a Kaleidoscope is the truth, how are you helping them by letting them think that? Galileo wasn't trying to shit on anyone by saying the earth revolved around the sun, and not the sun revolving around the earth. But for his truth telling he was punished. The only "hope" mythology offers is a temporary placebo. Real hope is facing reality.

I do not confront religion because I hate my fellow humans. I confront bad claims. 

I think that there's a boundary here that each one of us have to decide if we want to cross it or not. If someone is minding their own business, living their life, possibly in their own home just to take an example to the extreme... I'm not going to burst in the door and yell, "Nothing happens when you die so your Aunt Gertrude is gone forever and you'll never see her again! God is dead!"

lol

But if you actively partake in a debate and then try to back people off with "don't try to take away my hope" - that's insanely disingenuous.

(August 2, 2019 at 8:41 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: The trouble is that there’s no scenario in which a persons belief - doesn’t- effect others.  That’s just the nature of belief.

So we plug our noses....and hey, nothing wrong with that.

I can't argue with that. But we have to choose our battles.

Part of what determines the rate at which religious belief declines is the perception of the non-religious - like us. If we are perceived as heartless bastards that want to take away hope from people on their death bed, that will adversely affect the rate of decline. Conversely, if we are perceived more as live-and-let-live types, the masses will feel more comfortable with embracing our point of view.

(August 2, 2019 at 8:41 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: The trouble is that there’s no scenario in which a persons belief - doesn’t- effect others. That’s just the nature of belief.

So we plug our noses....and hey, nothing wrong with that.

I mean if that makes you happy. If I believe that I should wipe my ass exactly seven times per shot or a wizard will eat me, it will never, ever affect you. I mean, that statement is completely false.

(August 2, 2019 at 2:47 pm)Shell B Wrote: It's fine to question social norms. It's strange to care what people think if they're literally doing nothing that affects anyone but themselves. I won't try to disavow anyone of their belief in fairy tales with the only exception being when it has a negative impact on others/the world in general. Sure, I'll tell someone that stoning people to death because they think god wants them to is incorrect. I won't tell them that their god isn't watching over them because that belief is harmless.

Humans are social animals , you cannot avoid that. When you say "It is strange to care what people think if they are literally doing nothing that affects anyone else".

It is impossible not to care what others do. Politics and religion affect the world, regardless of position.

In  a moment of crisis I most certainly WONT argue if that belief brings that person comfort. I did that with my late mother. But in her lucid state prior to her decline she knew very well my position. 

The title of this thread wasn't advocating being a dick. It was a criticism of humans hiding behind belief even in a lucid state, even when they are not the victim.

As an atheist, on my deathbed, I don't want some asshole telling me I will burn in hell. And trust me , I did not say to my mom, in her decline " you are going nowhere". 

"Don't take away people's hope" is my criticism of people in their lucid state, but are too fearful to think they might not need a god. Just like the Church locked up Galileo for offering up the truth.

---

Shell, trust me. I know what you are going through. It is never easy to watch the decline of someone in your close circle, much less watch that person take their last breath., which I did.

My late mother always knew I was an atheist. But whenever she had health problems, and especially in her final decline, I never made god belief or religion a debate with her. My only focus was being there for her, and giving her any comfort and aid she needed.

My mom was my biggest supporter. She put me through college and bought me a house. We had nothing in common politically or religiously, and she was Felix and I was Oscar in the Odd Couple. But regardless, when the shit hit the fan we always had each other's back.

I still cared about what she believed just like she cared what I believed.

---

Let me put it to you this way. I love my current cat. No he did not buy me a house or put me through college. But I also know, just like when my brain dies, I wont be anymore. It sucks to know my late mother is not here. My live cat is, but wont be forever, neither will I.

All humans really can do is to value now, just like I value my late mother, just like I will mourn my cat when he passes. I don't want anyone mourning me in any superstitious way. All any theist or atheist can do in those final hours is to simply listen and do. But this thread was not about those final hours, this thread was about bad logic made by people in a lucid state.