(September 18, 2019 at 7:13 pm)Lek Wrote: I'm not talking about just Jesus, Allah, Brahman,  etc.   I'm talking about God.  So you think billions of educated,  non-delusional people are stupid, mistaken or delusional.  You are smarter and more perceptive than the vast majority of past and present day people?

I don't think it's a question of being smarter or more perceptive. It's a question of evidential standards and making the effort to overcome our sloppy thinking and demonstrated tendency to confirmation bias.

I think I'm no smarter than most people but I am far more SKEPTICAL than most, and I draw far fewer (as in zero) conclusions where there is no evidence to support it. I am this way because my life experience has taught me that this epistemological approach to thinking leads to far better outcomes in lived experience.

God told me directly that you are to send me $1000 a week via a US money order. Pm me so we can hash out the details.

I don’t claim to be smarter than anyone (except Gerald).

But there are tens of thousands of gods worshipped around the world, only a few of which share the traits claimed for the Christian deity (and, of course, remembering that allah is technically the same god that Christians worship).

People believe in gods for many different reasons.

Are they stupid? Not always.
Are they gullible? Not always.

Hell, one of the smartest people I’ve ever encountered was a Muslim (as was one of the most ignorant).

And I don’t play the numbers game because many of those billions don’t worship the same god.

(September 18, 2019 at 7:13 pm)Lek Wrote: I'm not talking about just Jesus, Allah, Brahman, etc. I'm talking about God. So you think billions of educated, non-delusional people are stupid, mistaken or delusional. You are smarter and more perceptive than the vast majority of past and present day people?

I dont understand your point. It's not a matter of raw intelligence. You dont have to be stupid or delusional to believe something that isn't true, but can 5 billion people be mistaken about something? A basic understanding of human psychology says absolutely. Also, billions arent educated. For the record.

Lek, you already know my definition of supernatural. You give yourself WAY too much credit. We're simply not privy of everything that happens around us. Just because we dont why something occurred doesnt mean it didnt happen by "natural" means, dude. Humble thyself.

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(September 18, 2019 at 7:37 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: God told me directly that you are to send me $1000 a week via a US money order. Pm me so we can hash out the details.

#Yang2020

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Here we go again...

(September 18, 2019 at 6:37 pm)Lek Wrote: I've been asked a zillion times in this forum to give evidence for why I believe in God and each time the questioner comes back and tells me that's not real evidence.   Here's the situation.  We have a being who is supernatural.  He/She/It can exist without the need to obey any natural laws and therefore, cannot be understood or explained by natural or scientific means. 

This is what you believe, we get it. But without GOOD evidence, we have no reason to believe you.

But I ask again, why would your god, provide us with the ability to figure out a method, that actually can be demonstrated to differentiate fact from fantasy for every other aspect of reality, yet for his existence, he purposely hides from said method?

Quote:I always reply that I believe because God has directly impressed me with the awareness of his existence.  I list supporting factors as the witness of other believers, evidence of ghosts and other supernatural phenomena, etc. 

How do you know a god has directly impressed you with his awareness? How have you ruled out other possibilities? How do you know that other believers are relaying actual experiences with a god?

How did you rule out your confirmation bias? How did you rule out a super advanced alien civilization, that loves to mess with humans?

Okay, for argument's sake, let's say ghosts exist. How would their existence provide evidence for a god? Many Buddhists sects believe in ghosts, yet have no god beliefs. So do indigenous peoples from all over the world.

Quote: A very conservative estimate of the number of people in the world today who believe in God, in this scientific age, is five billion.  These people are from every profession and walk of life.

Yes, and at one time the vast majority of humanity believed the sun orbited the earth, gods threw lightening, mental illness was due to curses, and so many other false beliefs.

Once again, no matter how impressed you are by the number of people that have a belief, how long the belief has been around, how educated the people that have the believe are, we are not impressed by fallacious reasoning.

Quote:If God directly illuminates me through supernatural means which cannot be tested by any natural means, how can I give you any other solid evidence other than to relate my experience?

Revelation is by definition, hearsay to anyone other than the experiencer. So, any person with a modicum of critical thinking skills, should not be convinced by others stories.

Quote:You might say I'm suffering from a delusion, but I have no other history of delusions and billions of others who have no history of delusions also believe in God.  Billions of these people are moderately or well-educated and realize that the earth revolves around the sun, as you do.

One doesn't have to be delusional in all aspects of their lives and experiences, in order to mistake an otherwise natural, but non-normal brains state, for a supernatural experience. After all, people have been triggered by electrical to their temporal lobes, to have fully realised 'religious experiences'.

How did you rule out something like this for your experience?

The reason why we use the example of the sun orbiting the earth, is not to point out theists have this false belief, it is only to point out, that the number of people that have a belief provides zero evidence that said belief is true.

Quote:Why don't you accept this as evidence for God?

Because, it is bad evidence. Bad and fallacious reasoning.

@Lek

No one is claiming you didn't have experiences, but how do you know (along with many other humans) that those experiences were manufactured any place but your brain ?

Atheists have experiences too, they just don't throw a the supernatural or god in the mix which is taking an experience then adding an explanation with no good reason.

It's the second part that we are sceptical about.

(September 18, 2019 at 7:43 pm)Aegon Wrote: #Yang2020

Fuck yea.

#UBIGang

(September 18, 2019 at 7:13 pm)Lek Wrote: I'm not talking about just Jesus, Allah, Brahman,  etc.   I'm talking about God.  So you think billions of educated,  non-delusional people are stupid, mistaken or delusional.  You are smarter and more perceptive than the vast majority of past and present day people?

No?  I'm only noting that you've inflated your stats by claiming people who think you're full of shit, that you don't believe me when I say god told -me- something, and that you don't accept the numbers of non believers as evidence.

Is any of this, what I'm commenting on, inaccurate ?  Does this not provide you with an answer to the question you asked of us?

Quote from Simon Moon:
But I ask again, why would your god, provide us with the ability to figure out a method, that actually can be demonstrated to differentiate fact from fantasy for every other aspect of reality, yet for his existence, he purposely hides from said method?

Reply:

I don't know, but as I answered before, maybe he wants us to believe for that reason. The ability he gave us that you mentioned is to distinguish natural reality, not supernatural reality. Maybe he wants us to know we must rely completely on him. I don't know why. From my experience, I just believe it is. Why not be open to that as billions of other smart people are? You can't accept that there can be any other way to know something, so just dismiss it.

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(September 18, 2019 at 8:23 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(September 18, 2019 at 7:13 pm)Lek Wrote: I'm not talking about just Jesus, Allah, Brahman,  etc.   I'm talking about God.  So you think billions of educated,  non-delusional people are stupid, mistaken or delusional.  You are smarter and more perceptive than the vast majority of past and present day people?

No?  I'm only noting that you've inflated your stats by claiming people who think you're full of shit, that you don't believe me when I say god told -me- something, and that you don't accept the numbers of non believers as evidence.

Is any of this, what I'm commenting on, inaccurate ?  Does this not provide you with an answer to the question you asked of us?

No. I stick with my numbers. check it out.

No...what?  

You listed articles in your op and then asked why others don;t accept them as evidence.  I'm asking you why you don't accept them as evidence.

The more fundamental question is why you would call an ad pop evidence in the first place.  

But...if thats what you want to focus on, okay.

Do you think a completely average distribution of atheists, agnostics, and secularists are delusional?  This is your question to me, and like before...its seems as if it answers itself.

Wouldn't you agree?