No, you lazy fuck, I will not do your very badly needed research for you. Get off your big fat personality and fucking wiki something.

The climate change angle is also bunk, sad to say. Not that this should dissuade a person anymore than the global hunger bit.

(November 25, 2019 at 12:13 pm)Aegon Wrote:

(November 23, 2019 at 6:11 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: I'm trying to be a vegan as I think it's ethical. However animals in the wild, like Richard Dawkins says, suffer horrible deaths whilst in the wild. Hunting them and shooting them killing them quickly then consuming their meat is still therefore ethical maybe? The animal will feel less pain in its lifetime if shot to death than if it died naturally in the wild.

Correct?

I'm not reading 15 pages of this, but I think vegan ethics extend beyond how animals feel.

By purchasing and consuming meat, we are perpetuating the whole system. Our meat consumption is a huge and well-documented culprit of climate change. If you eat vegan, vegetarian, or even less meat overall, you're doing something ethical in reducing your carbon footprint. If that's a main concern for someone, then actually eating only hunted meat is the most ethical way you could do it, since it's the farming methods that contribute to climate change, which hurt all of us.

If your concern is animal welfare, then yeah, I would say it would be most logically consistent to forgo animal products completely, hunted or not. We live in 2019, with advanced technology and a long, long list of non-meat alternatives. The amount of vegetarian and vegan restaurants is at an all-time high. We can live a happy and healthy lifestyle without eating any animal products. But what happens to an animal outside any direct or indirect interaction I have with it is of no consequence. All that matters is your choice and your action.

I'm vegetarian, and I'll be vegan eventually but I'm in no hurry.

I find veganism too difficult personally I've packed it in: Always craving meat, mildly on the depressed side, not sleeping properly at all was up all night last night, hungry almost all the time, stressed. I feel like I've failed at something when I haven't eaten meat. But I will try to eat as many vegan meals as possible.

Plus I've been watching Joe Rogan and veganism isn't necessarily the healthiest diet. Still feel sorry for animals though.

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(November 25, 2019 at 12:14 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: No, you lazy fuck, I will not do your very badly needed research for you. Get off your big fat personality and fucking wiki something.

I challenge you to a You Tube webcam diss war.

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(November 25, 2019 at 12:17 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: The climate change angle is also bunk, sad to say.  Not that this should dissuade a person anymore than the global hunger bit.

So everything about veganism is just BS basically? The best argument would be animals feel pain when executed but as long as it's not Halal we can even question that: Perhaps they don't feel pain.

The most demoralizing aspect of the sector I'm in is how quickly you realize that the people who's business and support you (and any sustainable future) depend on are also the same people who drive industry trends in the opposite direction.

It comes from a good place, but I'd be a liar if I told folks I'd never thought of exploiting the living shit out of their misapprehensions. I could, for example..massively increase the carbon footprint of my operation while cutting costs....hilariously...creating the impression that I'd done the opposite. This would justify, in the minds of a large portion of my customers, an increased price.

I could use that marketing to reach a larger base, through increased transportation, ballooning the carbon footprint further at a moderate cost, in exchange for a return orders of magnitude larger than we currently enjoy. This is exactly how the organic, free range, and vegan producers make their nut.

Something to think about this thanksgiving.

(November 25, 2019 at 12:24 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: I challenge you to a You Tube webcam diss war.

Every picture tell a story. You've just told me everything I need to know.

Personally I only webcam naked so a debate wouldn’t make it to youtube.

Can we just insult each other here?

(November 25, 2019 at 12:36 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(November 25, 2019 at 12:24 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: I challenge you to a You Tube webcam diss war.

Every picture tell a story. You've just told me everything I need to know.

K-12 seems to be leaking.

Not everything Tom, no. If I had to pin the bs down and make one generalization to rule them all...I'd say it's just oversold. People want to make a difference, and producers want the discretionary income that people who want to make a difference have.

The trouble, ultimately, is that it's our current distribution infrastructure at the root of these problems, and that infrastructure is going to be used to deliver whatever it is the consumer demands. It's the most obvious and productive lever to pull if we want to change the numbers...but we have to climb mount improbable to do that, since we've been dumping trillions of dollars into it over a century or so.

Imagine yourself as a small startup with a better product, model, marketing, and service. Just better in every way.......but the other guy has a trillion dollar warchest to grind you down or buy you out. Who do you place your bet on?

(November 25, 2019 at 12:35 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: The most demoralizing aspect of the sector I'm in is how quickly you realize that the people who's business and support you (and any sustainable future) depend on are also the same people who drive industry trends in the opposite direction.  

It comes from a good place, but I'd be a liar if I told folks I'd never thought of exploiting the living shit out of their misapprehensions.  I could, for example..massively increase the carbon footprint of my operation while cutting costs....hilariously...creating the impression that I'd done the opposite.  This would justify, in the minds of a large portion of my customers, an increased price.  

I could use that marketing to reach a larger base, through increased transportation, ballooning the carbon footprint further at a moderate cost, in exchange for a return orders of magnitude larger than we currently enjoy.  This is exactly how the organic, free range, and vegan producers make their nut.

Something to think about this thanksgiving.

(November 25, 2019 at 12:42 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(November 25, 2019 at 12:36 pm)Succubus Wrote: Every picture tell a story. You've just told me everything I need to know.

K-12 seems to be leaking.  

So that would be a no then?

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(November 25, 2019 at 12:36 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(November 25, 2019 at 12:24 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: I challenge you to a You Tube webcam diss war.

Every picture tell a story. You've just told me everything I need to know.

Which is...? Shouldn't that be "tells" a story, y'know, with an "s".

I don't kick puppies unless they need it.